Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 149999 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1875 on: September 04, 2019, 09:26:36 PM »

So what do you actually think about your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet?  Is it an acceptable diet, or is it a diet for everyone?  Or something in between?

LCHF ketogenic is the weight loss diet that has been found to be the healthiest, easiest to follow, easiest to stick with compared to all other weight loss diets studied in numerous random control studies. Since a weight loss diet is not appropriate for everyone, no, it is not a diet for everyone. There are plenty of carb restricted and limited carb diets for those who want a healthy diet but don't need to lose weight.

It should be the default diet recommendation for anyone overweight or obese. Currently the default is low fat, which is among the least effective. 

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone at or near a pre-diabetic state (as I was when I started).

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone with early TIID. Currently the default is insulin or glucose lowering drugs.

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone with low HDL and high TG and high LDL. Currently the default is statins.

The term default implies that it is not ideal for everyone. It should be the first recommendation, and if it doesn't work, then move on to the next. It should not be the last resort, as it is now. The last resort should be medicines and surgery. 

Quote

The thing about double quotation marks - Michael Egnor once paraphrased me (and inaccurately, actually falsely), justifying it with the claim that it was a paraphrase.

Well he sounds just like mr. Albert and I would have called him a fucking liar if I were in your shoes.

Well, I disagree with you when you claim that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic has been shown to be the healthiest diet.  The studies just aren’t available.  To know whether a diet is healthiest you need long term studies, not just your short term studies of months, or perhaps at most a year.  You need to know the morbidity and mortality figures of people who have been on your diet for years and decades.

The data just doesn’t exist.

I personally think John Albert’s paraphrasing not a lie.  You now claim that everyone should be on a low carbohydrate or limited carbohydrate diet even if they are of normal healthy weight, asserting that they’re healthier diets.  And actually, there is data regarding this.  The study in the Lancet showing that low carbohydrate diets are associated with higher mortality and shorter life expectancy.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1876 on: September 04, 2019, 10:21:19 PM »
As I’ve said before, people become overweight or obese because they’re been following bad habits for years or decades, putting on weight and increasing their body fat percentage slowly and steadily.

If weight reduction diets work, and most of them don’t, it’s because they cause the person to abandon their old bad habits and adopt new, hopefully good, habits.

Low carbohydrate diets work mainly because they remove the habit of drinking sugared soft drinks.  And fruit juices, which are almost as bad.  And most fast food meals, which are calorie dense.

Obesity and type 2 diabetes aren’t new problems.  Their incidence have been increasing since the ‘60s.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4887150/pdf/nihms782193.pdf

The dietary guidelines were a reaction to the increasing incidence of obesity and type 2 diabetes, not the cause.

It’s naive thinking that recommendations do anything to change people’s habits.  Doctors had been recommending for years for their patients to stop smoking.  The only thing that really worked was placing high taxes on cigarettes.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1877 on: September 04, 2019, 11:41:20 PM »

So what do you actually think about your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet?  Is it an acceptable diet, or is it a diet for everyone?  Or something in between?

LCHF ketogenic is the weight loss diet that has been found to be the healthiest, easiest to follow, easiest to stick with compared to all other weight loss diets studied in numerous random control studies. Since a weight loss diet is not appropriate for everyone, no, it is not a diet for everyone. There are plenty of carb restricted and limited carb diets for those who want a healthy diet but don't need to lose weight.

It should be the default diet recommendation for anyone overweight or obese. Currently the default is low fat, which is among the least effective. 

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone at or near a pre-diabetic state (as I was when I started).

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone with early TIID. Currently the default is insulin or glucose lowering drugs.

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone with low HDL and high TG and high LDL. Currently the default is statins.

The term default implies that it is not ideal for everyone. It should be the first recommendation, and if it doesn't work, then move on to the next. It should not be the last resort, as it is now. The last resort should be medicines and surgery. 

Quote

The thing about double quotation marks - Michael Egnor once paraphrased me (and inaccurately, actually falsely), justifying it with the claim that it was a paraphrase.

Well he sounds just like mr. Albert and I would have called him a fucking liar if I were in your shoes.

Well, I disagree with you when you claim that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic has been shown to be the healthiest diet.  The studies just aren’t available.  To know whether a diet is healthiest you need long term studies, not just your short term studies of months, or perhaps at most a year.  You need to know the morbidity and mortality figures of people who have been on your diet for years and decades.

The data just doesn’t exist.

I personally think John Albert’s paraphrasing not a lie.  You now claim that everyone should be on a low carbohydrate or limited carbohydrate diet even if they are of normal healthy weight, asserting that they’re healthier diets. 

I just said the opposite, Dr. Reading Comprehension.





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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1878 on: September 04, 2019, 11:42:21 PM »
As I’ve said before, people become overweight or obese because they’re been following bad habits for years or decades, putting on weight and increasing their body fat percentage slowly and steadily.

If weight reduction diets work, and most of them don’t, it’s because they cause the person to abandon their old bad habits and adopt new, hopefully good, habits.

Low carbohydrate diets work mainly because they remove the habit of drinking sugared soft drinks.  And fruit juices, which are almost as bad.  And most fast food meals, which are calorie dense.

Obesity and type 2 diabetes aren’t new problems.  Their incidence have been increasing since the ‘60s.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4887150/pdf/nihms782193.pdf

The dietary guidelines were a reaction to the increasing incidence of obesity and type 2 diabetes, not the cause.


Why are you not demanding long term studies to support the dietary guidelines ?



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I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1879 on: September 04, 2019, 11:59:16 PM »

So what do you actually think about your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet?  Is it an acceptable diet, or is it a diet for everyone?  Or something in between?

LCHF ketogenic is the weight loss diet that has been found to be the healthiest, easiest to follow, easiest to stick with compared to all other weight loss diets studied in numerous random control studies. Since a weight loss diet is not appropriate for everyone, no, it is not a diet for everyone. There are plenty of carb restricted and limited carb diets for those who want a healthy diet but don't need to lose weight.

It should be the default diet recommendation for anyone overweight or obese. Currently the default is low fat, which is among the least effective. 

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone at or near a pre-diabetic state (as I was when I started).

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone with early TIID. Currently the default is insulin or glucose lowering drugs.

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone with low HDL and high TG and high LDL. Currently the default is statins.

The term default implies that it is not ideal for everyone. It should be the first recommendation, and if it doesn't work, then move on to the next. It should not be the last resort, as it is now. The last resort should be medicines and surgery. 

Quote

The thing about double quotation marks - Michael Egnor once paraphrased me (and inaccurately, actually falsely), justifying it with the claim that it was a paraphrase.

Well he sounds just like mr. Albert and I would have called him a fucking liar if I were in your shoes.

Well, I disagree with you when you claim that your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic has been shown to be the healthiest diet.  The studies just aren’t available.  To know whether a diet is healthiest you need long term studies, not just your short term studies of months, or perhaps at most a year.  You need to know the morbidity and mortality figures of people who have been on your diet for years and decades.

The data just doesn’t exist.

I personally think John Albert’s paraphrasing not a lie.  You now claim that everyone should be on a low carbohydrate or limited carbohydrate diet even if they are of normal healthy weight, asserting that they’re healthier diets. 

I just said the opposite, Dr. Reading Comprehension.

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OK, you said the opposite.  So what did you say?  That no one should be on a low carbohydrate or limited carbohydrate diet?  Or that everyone should be on a low carbohydrate or limited carbohydrate, even though it’s less healthy?
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1880 on: September 05, 2019, 12:10:06 AM »
As I’ve said before, people become overweight or obese because they’re been following bad habits for years or decades, putting on weight and increasing their body fat percentage slowly and steadily.

If weight reduction diets work, and most of them don’t, it’s because they cause the person to abandon their old bad habits and adopt new, hopefully good, habits.

Low carbohydrate diets work mainly because they remove the habit of drinking sugared soft drinks.  And fruit juices, which are almost as bad.  And most fast food meals, which are calorie dense.

Obesity and type 2 diabetes aren’t new problems.  Their incidence have been increasing since the ‘60s.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4887150/pdf/nihms782193.pdf

The dietary guidelines were a reaction to the increasing incidence of obesity and type 2 diabetes, not the cause.


Why are you not demanding long term studies to support the dietary guidelines ?



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Exactly.  That’s what I’m demanding.  I want long term observational studies of diet, with all the variables controlled.  I suspect that if the studies are done, very little difference between various diets (and the dietary guidelines include many acceptable ones) will be found, provided the variables are controlled for (for example, a study may show that consumers of ‘organic’ food enjoy better health, but once the benefit of affluence is removed the health benefits might disappear).

You actually want studies of macronutrient proportions, if you’re asking for studies ‘supporting’ the dietary guidelines.  And at least one has been done, which showed increased mortality and reduced life expectancy with low carbohydrate diets.  Which you reject.
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Offline lonely moa

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1881 on: September 05, 2019, 12:41:57 AM »

Exactly.  All interventions have to be eventually assessed on the basis of long term effects on morbidity and mortality, as an extended phase 4 clinical trial.  Medications get licensed for use in specific conditions on the basis of more than just one phase 3 trial, which is looking at the short term effects and side effects.


As Dr Malcolm Kendrick noted, it is imposible to have a blinded study of statins.  They will lower one's LDL and both one's physician and the participant will know whether they are in the placebo or treatment arm of any study.

The same goes for diet; and there are plenty of studies of humans that have lived on intermittent eating programmes and high fat low carb diets... for generations.  Maronutrients are rather hard not to discern in the diet.

Most of the reputable diet studies seem to show that lowering LDL is either not beneficial or it is harmful to one's long term health and longevity.
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1882 on: September 05, 2019, 12:54:51 AM »

Exactly.  All interventions have to be eventually assessed on the basis of long term effects on morbidity and mortality, as an extended phase 4 clinical trial.  Medications get licensed for use in specific conditions on the basis of more than just one phase 3 trial, which is looking at the short term effects and side effects.


As Dr Malcolm Kendrick noted, it is imposible to have a blinded study of statins.  They will lower one's LDL and both one's physician and the participant will know whether they are in the placebo or treatment arm of any study.

The same goes for diet; and there are plenty of studies of humans that have lived on intermittent eating programmes and high fat low carb diets... for generations.  Maronutrients are rather hard not to discern in the diet.

Most of the reputable diet studies seem to show that lowering LDL is either not beneficial or it is harmful to one's long term health and longevity.

In a phase 3 study, both the doctors and the participants won’t know whether they’re in the placebo or the treatment arms.

In the phase 4 phase, whether statins or diet, it doesn’t matter that the participants know.  Dead or not dead are difficult to be affected by just the placebo effect.

Care to cite the studies on generations of people living on intermittent fasting and low carbohydrate/high fat diets?  You say there are many studies.  It should be easy to cite at least one.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1883 on: September 05, 2019, 08:24:12 AM »
To put something in quotes attributed to me that is not something I ever said is a flat out lie

It's not a lie, because I never said it was a direct quote.


Synonymous is not the same as a direct quote and if you put something in quotation marks that you attribute to me that I never said that an out right lie.

No, it isn't. Quotation marks do not specify attribution. It was a paraphrase, not a direct quote.


And, no, I never said anything synonymous with that either. And, no you cannot provide quotes from me consistent with all of the twisted and exaggerated and self serving interpretations of what you claim I'm saying.

Having read your screeds on diet and nutrition for literal years now, I'm quite familiar with your position. You've made it pretty clear in statements like these:

             
My claim is that simple carbs are inherently bad
             
Sugar is not acutely toxic, it's chronically toxic. 
           
I would argue that the key to understanding nutrition is understanding the interplay between blood glucose; the insulin/glucagon response to blood glucose; the role of insulin in regulating energy partitioning.
           
My understanding is that eating a variety of meats provides all the micronutrients the body needs, and in many cases they are more readily bio-available than those in fruits and vegetables.
           
Very little is known, really about diet.

So it appears that your entire view of nutrition revolves around the following themes:
  • highly-educated medical professionals are largely ignorant about nutrition,
  • but you know better because you can almost figure out the gist of some medical studies
  • your beliefs about the effects of macronutrients on metabolism are the key to understanding nutrition
  • carbohydrates are chronically toxic to the human body,
  • therefore a LCHF diet is necessary to avoid consuming carbs which are a slow poison

And then there was the time you boldly asserted, sans evidence, that it's "unscientific" to say no single diet works best for everybody:

                   
[...] Humans have adapted over millions of years to eat a varied diet and part of that is that we are good at metabolizing whatever food is available at the time.  So there is almost certainly no best diet.  I would guess that each individual needs to think about their personal genetics and lifestyle to come up with whatever works optimally for themselves.

That’s what I call the nutritional snowflake argument. That we’re all different and we each need to find the diet that works best for us.

Problem is that’s unscientific.

And you've promoted the appeal to nature fallacy that's so popular with low-carb evangelists: the pseudoscientific myth that human beings specifically evolved to eat meat, and the advent of agriculture precipitated a sudden decline in overall human health:

               
What are the odds that the best diet for humans to eat is all meat, when we evolved to eat so many kinds of foods?

We evolved eating mostly meat, and it's likely that our ancestors evolved from carnivorous species.

Everywhere there is evidence of early man there is evidence of cooking and eating meat. And meat is pretty much the same everywhere, but plants are very different from region to region and climate to climate, and their availability is often seasonal.

Plus, it's clear that when we moved to an agricultural basis the overall health of humans declined. (although there were benefits, shifting to a diets with lots of grain and more plants diet did not make us healthier).

Given all that, I feel pretty confident in reducing your arguments down to something like, "LCHF diets are the optimal healthy diet for everybody."

And given the umpteen threads you've created and the other threads you've hijacked to advertise for your ketogenic diet, I suspect all our readers would agree that's a decent summary of your position.

If you insist that's unfair, then please feel free to enlighten us as to how your actual beliefs may differ.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 10:01:35 AM by John Albert »

Offline John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1884 on: September 05, 2019, 09:37:11 AM »
Okay, so it seems you've changed your story a bit.

What you posted yesterday is very different from your previous statements that I quoted in my above post.

LCHF ketogenic is the weight loss diet that has been found to be the healthiest, easiest to follow, easiest to stick with compared to all other weight loss diets studied in numerous random control studies.

So which is it?

Are carbohydrates inherently bad? Are 'fast carbs' really toxic? Or do other factors come into play, such as the individual's metabolism and the quantities consumed?

Do you still consider it unscientific to say that each individual needs to find a diet that works optimally for themselves?

Did mankind evolve to eat meat, or are we omnivores? Did the adoption of agriculture and civilization really cause a global decline in human health, or is there insufficient evidence to support such a conclusion?

Have you changed your mind about these points? If so, that's a good thing.


Since a weight loss diet is not appropriate for everyone, no, it is not a diet for everyone. There are plenty of carb restricted and limited carb diets for those who want a healthy diet but don't need to lose weight.

It should be the default diet recommendation for anyone overweight or obese. Currently the default is low fat, which is among the least effective. 

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone at or near a pre-diabetic state (as I was when I started).

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone with early TIID. Currently the default is insulin or glucose lowering drugs.

It should be the default therapy recommendation for anyone with low HDL and high TG and high LDL. Currently the default is statins.

The term default implies that it is not ideal for everyone. It should be the first recommendation, and if it doesn't work, then move on to the next. It should not be the last resort, as it is now. The last resort should be medicines and surgery. 

So again you're back to giving unqualified, unsolicited medical advice. But this time it sounds like you're going right over the patients' heads and directing your layman's advice at the medical establishment itself.

Where's your evidence for all the above claims?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 12:02:29 PM by John Albert »

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1885 on: September 05, 2019, 12:13:47 PM »
I would be happy to engage in an honest and open conversation with you or anyone else.

But you have to stop these little lies and the misrepresentations.

If you want a response just admit that I never said what you quoted me saying. Failure to do so is perpetuating a lie.

I won’t have a discussion with a liar. There is no point.

If hype need to lie and misrepresent to make you arguments maybe your arguments are weak or it’s just that you aren’t up to the task.

Take a lesson from Steve. He is always meticulously honest in everything he says.


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Offline gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1886 on: September 05, 2019, 12:23:29 PM »
He didn't quote you as saying that, though. The context of the quotation marks pretty clearly indicates it was meant as a paraphrase. You may argue that it was an incorrect paraphrase, but that doesn't make it a lie.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1887 on: September 05, 2019, 01:01:08 PM »
I would be happy to engage in an honest and open conversation with you or anyone else.

But you have to stop these little lies and the misrepresentations.

I quoted your exact words, from your own posts, in BBCode quoteblocks that link back to your original posts!

There's no way you can plausibly deny that you said that stuff.


If you want a response just admit that I never said what you quoted me saying. Failure to do so is perpetuating a lie.

I won’t have a discussion with a liar. There is no point.

If hype need to lie and misrepresent to make you arguments maybe your arguments are weak or it’s just that you aren’t up to the task.

I already told you, that sentence I posted earlier ("LCHF diets are the optimal healthy diet for everybody") was not a direct quote, it was a paraphrase. You can make demands all day long, but I did nothing untoward that requires an apology.

You're just acting like a petulant child because I pointed out some inconsistencies in your rhetoric that you'd rather not have to acknowledge. This is just another of your little games, and I am not playing along. 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 01:05:34 PM by John Albert »

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1888 on: September 05, 2019, 01:13:54 PM »
He didn't quote you as saying that, though. The context of the quotation marks pretty clearly indicates it was meant as a paraphrase. You may argue that it was an incorrect paraphrase, but that doesn't make it a lie.

Quotation marks indicate it's a quote. That's why they call them quotation marks.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1889 on: September 05, 2019, 01:39:26 PM »
Quotation marks indicate it's a quote. That's why they call them quotation marks.

Quotation marks are used in several different contexts.

I already acknowledged you never actually said those words, and have clarified several times that it wasn't intended as a quote of something you allegedly said.

I'm not playing these games with you. This is just another version of the same dishonest tactic you always pull when somebody unequivocally calls you on your bullshit; you resort to some semantic handwaving in a pathetic attempt to distract from the obvious.

Answer my questions, or don't. I don't care either way.

But I am not going to let you off the hook.




 

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