Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 152588 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2327
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1935 on: October 05, 2019, 10:40:02 PM »
Johnston et al’s review of dietary recommendations for sugar:

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2593601/scientific-basis-guideline-recommendations-sugar-intake-systematic-review

They make the same claim.  That the evidence is weak.  At least they’re not advising what people’s consumption of sugar should be.  At least they’re not saying that people like adding sugar, and enjoy heavily sugared soft drinks, so they don’t need to be advised (or shouldn’t be) to reducing their sugar intake (as they do with meat and meat products).  And they do admit to a financial conflict of interest.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 12311
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1936 on: November 18, 2019, 03:19:45 PM »
Both you comments and JTs imply that there are a ton of RCTs showing problems and issues with LC diets and that I’m ignoring and only selecting the few I agree with.

So where are these RCTs?

Bring them on. (but in the appropriate thread, please).

RCT stands for ‘randomised controlled trial.’  There are no RCTs for the long term health effects of being on a ketogenic diet, but there are long term observational studies of being on a low carbohydrate diet, which have shown higher mortality. 

Well, by your definition of long term, that's correct. There are no RCTs for the long term health effects of being on any diet.

However, there are plenty of scientists and researchers who consider for diet  6 months or more to be sufficiently long term; more consider 1 year sufficient; some 2 years and some five years.

But, of course, in the long term we're all dead.

Quote


There are also short term RCTs showing the effectiveness of ketogenic diets in losing weight.  There are also RCTs showing the effectiveness of other diets too...

No doubt, however, no other diet has been shown to be more effective than the ketogenic diet for weight loss or improving risk factors for CVD, diabetes and other chronic diseases.

Quote
  And also of increasing exercise. 

Not nearly as effective as dietary changes, going by RCTs and the best science available.


Quote
It’s arguable which diet is more effective in losing weight, either in the short term or long term.  One of the participants in the television show ‘the Biggest Loser’ noted that they never have a follow up show in which they have a get together of the previous winners, because they have all put on the weight, and often put on even more weight to be even fatter.

That's why we do RCTs and publish the study results in peer reviewed journals.  (Follow ups on the biggest looser show that show is a disaster).


Quote
The depressing fact is that most weight loss diets don’t work long term.


That's a misunderstanding and over simplification.

Quote
You can recommend ketogenic diets as a short term weight loss strategy.  There are RCTs showing that it’s effective short term.  But you can’t recommend ketogenic diets as a long term diet, because there are no long term observational studies (the only long term studies that are feasible for questions of diet and nutrition) that it is safe.

Short term weightless strategies are inherently unhealthy. Going on a diet for a short time, losing weight, then returning to your previous diet and regaining weight and repeating has been shown to be unhealthy.
Quote

If you have the studies, where are they?

I have posted links to hundreds of studies that support the claims I make. In this thread and others. You can find them just going to the first page and moving on from there.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2730
    • jt512
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1937 on: November 18, 2019, 03:33:55 PM »
Both you comments and JTs imply that there are a ton of RCTs showing problems and issues with LC diets and that I’m ignoring and only selecting the few I agree with.

So where are these RCTs?

Bring them on. (but in the appropriate thread, please).

RCT stands for ‘randomised controlled trial.’  There are no RCTs for the long term health effects of being on a ketogenic diet, but there are long term observational studies of being on a low carbohydrate diet, which have shown higher mortality. 

Well, by your definition of long term, that's correct. There are no RCTs for the long term health effects of being on any diet.

However, there are plenty of scientists and researchers who consider for diet  6 months or more to be sufficiently long term; more consider 1 year sufficient; some 2 years...


None who know what they're talking about (for hard endpoints, that is).

Quote
But, of course, in the long term we're all dead.


True.  But it's a question of how soon that happens.

Quote
There are also short term RCTs showing the effectiveness of ketogenic diets in losing weight.


True.  The point is those are the only ones you ever bring up.
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 12311
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1938 on: November 18, 2019, 03:49:09 PM »
Both you comments and JTs imply that there are a ton of RCTs showing problems and issues with LC diets and that I’m ignoring and only selecting the few I agree with.

So where are these RCTs?

Bring them on. (but in the appropriate thread, please).

RCT stands for ‘randomised controlled trial.’  There are no RCTs for the long term health effects of being on a ketogenic diet, but there are long term observational studies of being on a low carbohydrate diet, which have shown higher mortality. 

Well, by your definition of long term, that's correct. There are no RCTs for the long term health effects of being on any diet.

However, there are plenty of scientists and researchers who consider for diet  6 months or more to be sufficiently long term; more consider 1 year sufficient; some 2 years...


None who know what they're talking about (for hard endpoints, that is).

Quote
But, of course, in the long term we're all dead.


True.  But it's a question of how soon that happens.

Quote
There are also short term RCTs showing the effectiveness of ketogenic diets in losing weight.


True.  The point is those are the only ones you ever bring up.

OK. Fair point. You seem to be suggesting that there are short term RCTs showing that ketogenic diets are not effective for weight loss or don't improve most risk factors for CVD; TIID and other chronic diseases.

Unlike Backfield, you are not a science denier and see the value of studies published in peer review literature. (Neither of us accept it as gospel).

So, go ahead, pop into pub med, do whatever searches you want. Cherry pick however you wish.

I'd love to see these RCTs or other studies that show that well formulated ketogenic diets are ineffective.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2730
    • jt512
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1939 on: November 18, 2019, 03:54:27 PM »

So, go ahead, pop into pub med, do whatever searches you want. Cherry pick however you wish.

I'd love to see these RCTs or other studies that show that well formulated ketogenic diets are ineffective.


We've discussed numerous such studies piecemeal over the years.  I do not have sufficient interest in the subject of LCHF diets do such a pubmed search.
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 12311
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1940 on: November 18, 2019, 05:57:51 PM »

So, go ahead, pop into pub med, do whatever searches you want. Cherry pick however you wish.

I'd love to see these RCTs or other studies that show that well formulated ketogenic diets are ineffective.


We've discussed numerous such studies piecemeal over the years.  I do not have sufficient interest in the subject of LCHF diets do such a pubmed search.

That’s false. We have not discussed those studies because the do not exist.

We have discussed the body of studies that do show the effectiveness of LCHF ketogenic diets, and you have quibbled about a few of them.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2327
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1941 on: November 18, 2019, 06:14:40 PM »

So, go ahead, pop into pub med, do whatever searches you want. Cherry pick however you wish.

I'd love to see these RCTs or other studies that show that well formulated ketogenic diets are ineffective.


We've discussed numerous such studies piecemeal over the years.  I do not have sufficient interest in the subject of LCHF diets do such a pubmed search.

That’s false. We have not discussed those studies because the do not exist.

We have discussed the body of studies that do show the effectiveness of LCHF ketogenic diets, and you have quibbled about a few of them.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t dispute that ketogenic diets are effective short term for losing weight.  But then again, there are a lot of other diets that are effective in losing weight short term.

The unfortunate fact is that most, probably all, diets fail long term.  People lose weight, and then they put it back on again, and often even put on more weight than their pre-diet weight.

What I do dispute is that the ketogenic diet is effective long term, because there are no long term studies showing that they are.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2730
    • jt512
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1942 on: November 18, 2019, 06:48:31 PM »

So, go ahead, pop into pub med, do whatever searches you want. Cherry pick however you wish.

I'd love to see these RCTs or other studies that show that well formulated ketogenic diets are ineffective.


We've discussed numerous such studies piecemeal over the years.  I do not have sufficient interest in the subject of LCHF diets do such a pubmed search.

That’s false. We have not discussed those studies because the do not exist.

ORLY?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0021915018314321
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2327
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1943 on: November 18, 2019, 07:02:00 PM »

So, go ahead, pop into pub med, do whatever searches you want. Cherry pick however you wish.

I'd love to see these RCTs or other studies that show that well formulated ketogenic diets are ineffective.


We've discussed numerous such studies piecemeal over the years.  I do not have sufficient interest in the subject of LCHF diets do such a pubmed search.

That’s false. We have not discussed those studies because the do not exist.

ORLY?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0021915018314321

I can’t wait for CarbShark’s response.  I wonder what it will be?
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 12311
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1944 on: November 18, 2019, 08:31:06 PM »
You’ll have to wait until I can read the full text


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2730
    • jt512
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1945 on: November 18, 2019, 08:38:54 PM »

So, go ahead, pop into pub med, do whatever searches you want. Cherry pick however you wish.

I'd love to see these RCTs or other studies that show that well formulated ketogenic diets are ineffective.


We've discussed numerous such studies piecemeal over the years.  I do not have sufficient interest in the subject of LCHF diets do such a pubmed search.

That’s false. We have not discussed those studies because the do not exist.

ORLY?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0021915018314321

I can’t wait for CarbShark’s response.  I wonder what it will be?


Whatever he says, it cannot be that there are no RCTs of LCHF diets showing adverse results.
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2730
    • jt512
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1946 on: November 18, 2019, 09:27:31 PM »
You’ll have to wait until I can read the full text


It can be downloaded from here.
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2327
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1947 on: November 19, 2019, 02:59:58 PM »
You’ll have to wait until I can read the full text


It can be downloaded from here.

CarbShark is a v-e-r-y S-l-o-w reader.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 12311
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1948 on: November 19, 2019, 04:10:58 PM »
You’ll have to wait until I can read the full text


It can be downloaded from here.

CarbShark is a v-e-r-y S-l-o-w reader.

CarbShark is a busy man
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2327
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1949 on: November 19, 2019, 04:57:56 PM »
You’ll have to wait until I can read the full text


It can be downloaded from here.

CarbShark is a v-e-r-y S-l-o-w reader.

CarbShark is a busy man

But not too busy not to be snarky.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

 

personate-rain
personate-rain