Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 162360 times)

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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #315 on: August 29, 2016, 05:47:24 PM »
Compared to today in the US (well, 2011), when at birth one has an 88.75% chance of living to 60 and, if one first survives until 15, an 89.5% chance.

And no, I'm not saying the increase is due to our agricultural diet, and I don't think anyone else is saying that either. Lifespan was brought up in relation to how different the modern lifestyle is from the one our ancestors evolved in. As I've mentioned before, either here or in one of the many other threads you two have taken over with your pro-meat anti-carb dead horse, one thing this means is that most potential late-life consequences of the diet you advocate would be absent from the archaeological record because too few people lived that long.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 05:52:30 PM by gmalivuk »
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #316 on: August 29, 2016, 05:59:41 PM »
I don't get what you think you're contradicting there, lonely moa. I for one would like to live longer than age 60.

(And early death is not something you can just disregard. It's true that mean and median lifespans can both be lowered significantly by infant and child mortality, so that they don't give a good indication of how long an older person should expect to live, but those numbers still tell us useful information about the health of a population, however the deaths are distributed. We want longer adult lives *and* less chance of dying before adulthood than our ancestors had.)

There are many causes of early death during the stone age that had strong effects on the average life span, that have been reduced or eliminated today.

From basic things like elimination of predation; treatment of injuries (broken bones; penetrating trauma; etc.); infant and childhood mortality (probably the most significant of factors that lowered ALE); treatment of infectious disease (probably second most significant factor).

None of these has anything to do with nutrition. There is absolutely no evidence that the USDA recommended diet is more healthful or expands the lifespan compared to the paleo diet, or the relatively higher fat lower carb diet that preceded it. If anything the opposite is true.

Human health in general declined with the advent of agriculture and the introduction of grains to the diet. (well documented).

Human health is again declining within the last 50 years in areas (the US and the Western Industrialized world) with the increased consumption of sugars and highly refined carbs and the reduction of fat in the diet. The result has been epidemic levels of overweight and obese individuals of all ages (from newborns to 60+) and that is having an impact on life expectancy.
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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #317 on: August 29, 2016, 06:15:42 PM »
There is absolutely no evidence that the USDA recommended diet is more healthful or expands the lifespan compared to the paleo diet, or the relatively higher fat lower carb diet that preceded it. If anything the opposite is true.
And no, I'm not saying the increase is due to our agricultural diet, and I don't think anyone else is saying that either.
As I just fucking said, I'm not saying the modern diet is the cause of the increase in lifespan.

Quote
Human health is again declining within the last 50 years in areas (the US and the Western Industrialized world) with the increased consumption of sugars and highly refined carbs and the reduction of fat in the diet. The result has been epidemic levels of overweight and obese individuals of all ages (from newborns to 60+) and that is having an impact on life expectancy.
Are their industrialized countries where life expectancy is decreasing?
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #318 on: August 29, 2016, 06:33:34 PM »
There is absolutely no evidence that the USDA recommended diet is more healthful or expands the lifespan compared to the paleo diet, or the relatively higher fat lower carb diet that preceded it. If anything the opposite is true.
And no, I'm not saying the increase is due to our agricultural diet, and I don't think anyone else is saying that either.
I'm not saying the modern diet is the cause of the increase in lifespan.

Right. The agricultural diet began 10 to 12,000 years ago. That's not the modern, western diet described by the USDA dietary guidelines.

But, the point is that we're talking about making a dietary change, and you and others keep bringing up lifespan as an argument against the "evolutionary diet." And that's irrelevant.
 
Quote
Human health is again declining within the last 50 years in areas (the US and the Western Industrialized world) with the increased consumption of sugars and highly refined carbs and the reduction of fat in the diet. The result has been epidemic levels of overweight and obese individuals of all ages (from newborns to 60+) and that is having an impact on life expectancy.
Quote
Are their industrialized countries where life expectancy is decreasing?
Yes. I believe the epidemics of obesity and overweight people is having a negative effect on life expectancy in the US. The rest of the industrial world isn't far behind.

It's clear that overweight individuals have a lower life expectancy than normal weight, and obese even lower.

With 50% of the population obese and 75% overweight (including the obese) it should be no surprise that average life expectancy is starting to show signs of a decline.

This is all part of the spectacular failure of mainstream science and medicine in dealing with nutrition.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 06:56:54 PM by estockly »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #319 on: August 29, 2016, 06:42:02 PM »
it should be no surprise that average life expectancy is starting to show signs of a decline.
Except, no it's not?
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #320 on: August 29, 2016, 07:01:52 PM »
it should be no surprise that average life expectancy is starting to show signs of a decline.
Except, no it's not?

It is starting to show signs of a decline.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/life-expectancy-for-white-women-falls-slightly-in-u-s/


Not really that surprising give that obesity will cut an individual's live expectancy by about 8 years, and we have an epidemic of obesity.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #321 on: August 29, 2016, 07:09:06 PM »
it should be no surprise that average life expectancy is starting to show signs of a decline.
Except, no it's not?

You may find this interesting. Compare these two lists:

Collection Name
Adult Obesity in the United States: The State of Obesity
http://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/

life-expectancy-by-gender

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/life-expectancy-by-gender/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Male%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

Notice who strongly the shortest lifespans correlate with the highest rates of obesity?
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #322 on: August 29, 2016, 08:01:29 PM »
I didn't ask for correlations with obesity, because that's not the claim you made.

You said declining health in the past 50 years has shown itself in life expectancy, and the evidence you provided for that claim was one data point for one demographic subgroup where average age at death was a tenth of a year lower than it had been the previous year. (A data point which, according to the article you linked, correlates with "increases in opioid abuse, suicide, chronic liver disease, which is really related to alcohol abuse".)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 08:04:07 PM by gmalivuk »
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #323 on: August 29, 2016, 08:26:22 PM »
I didn't ask for correlations with obesity, because that's not the claim you made.

You said declining health in the past 50 years has shown itself in life expectancy, and the evidence you provided for that claim was one data point for one demographic subgroup where average age at death was a tenth of a year lower than it had been the previous year. (A data point which, according to the article you linked, correlates with "increases in opioid abuse, suicide, chronic liver disease, which is really related to alcohol abuse".)

Excuse me? Where did I say that?  You're creating a very different straw man that's easier to argue with.

What I said is that life expectancy is just starting to show signs of a decline. As for the "data points" in the article, those are not data points from the study, which did not draw a link to any cause. Those are conclusions by the article writer. As for chronic liver disease, the rates of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease have increased at the same rate as the increase in the number of overweight and obesity. Liver diseases is not only related to alcohol abuse.

Due to the way life-expectancy figures are calculated it's very likely that any change that has manifested today won't show up in the data until larger numbers of baby-boomers start actually dying at a younger age, relative to the current life expectancy.
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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #324 on: August 29, 2016, 10:00:23 PM »
You said declining health in the past 50 years has shown itself in life expectancy
Excuse me? Where did I say that?  You're creating a very different straw man that's easier to argue with.

What I said is that life expectancy is just starting to show signs of a decline.
Are you saying "declining health has shown itself in life expectancy" and "life expectancy is starting to show signs of decline" are somehow contradictory?

Also, if health has been declining for 50 years, why do we have to wait another few decades for boomers to start dying before that will show up in the data? Health is declining but people aren't dying any younger yet?
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #325 on: August 29, 2016, 11:32:27 PM »
You said declining health in the past 50 years has shown itself in life expectancy
Excuse me? Where did I say that?  You're creating a very different straw man that's easier to argue with.

What I said is that life expectancy is just starting to show signs of a decline.
Are you saying "declining health has shown itself in life expectancy" and "life expectancy is starting to show signs of decline" are somehow contradictory?

Yes.

Quote
Also, if health has been declining for 50 years, why do we have to wait another few decades for boomers to start dying before that will show up in the data? Health is declining but people aren't dying any younger yet?

Who said health has been declining for fifty years? 

A large segment of the population has been adding weight and developing bad health at a steadily increasing rate for about 40 years.

For that group their health has been declining. And in the last 20 years there's a new epidemic of infant and childhood obesity

At the same time same time we've made good progress in treatments of a number of diseases which has improved health for many


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #326 on: August 29, 2016, 11:32:54 PM »
it should be no surprise that average life expectancy is starting to show signs of a decline.
Except, no it's not?

It is starting to show signs of a decline.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/life-expectancy-for-white-women-falls-slightly-in-u-s/

Not really that surprising give that obesity will cut an individual's live expectancy by about 8 years, and we have an epidemic of obesity.

You might try actually reading the article:

Quote
Though the report did not look at the reasons for the decline in life expectancy in white women, analysts say the answer most likely lies in several concerning health trends that have emerged in recent years.
"In this group, we're seeing increases in opioid abuse, chronic liver disease, which is really related to alcohol abuse, so this could be due to that," Guillot said.

The last time life expectancy dropped for white women was in 2008, which was considered a statistical blip, Arias said. The same might be true for the decrease seen in the most recent analysis, but it will take some time to know for sure.

"We'll have to wait a little bit longer to know whether this is indicative of something serious or if this is just a blip..."

There's no hint anywhere in the article that anyone thinks this was due to obesity or diet.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #327 on: August 29, 2016, 11:44:46 PM »
As I said the study did not point to a specific cause and life expectancy estimates usually don't. But here's the thing. With all the medical progress we've made since the 70s in treating cancer and geriatric care why have live expectancy rates stopped increasing?  Why have they started dropping.

Are you saying it's not obesity?


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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #328 on: August 29, 2016, 11:50:26 PM »
Who said health has been declining for fifty years?
Human health is again declining within the last 50 years
You did.

As I said the study did not point to a specific cause and life expectancy estimates usually don't. But here's the thing. With all the medical progress we've made since the 70s in treating cancer and geriatric care why have live expectancy rates stopped increasing?  Why have they started dropping.

Are you saying it's not obesity?
"They" haven't started dropping. They increased or remained constant for all demographic groups except non-Hispanic white women from 2013 to 2014.

You're saying it is obesity, but haven't actually offered any direct evidence for that claim.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #329 on: August 29, 2016, 11:54:12 PM »
As I said the study did not point to a specific cause and life expectancy estimates usually don't. But here's the thing. With all the medical progress we've made since the 70s in treating cancer and geriatric care why have live expectancy rates stopped increasing?  Why have they started dropping.

Are you saying it's not obesity?


There's really no evidence that life expectancy has started dropping.  And as the article says, if this 5-week decline in life expectancy is real, the best guesses are that it is the result of alcohol abuse, drug abuse, and suicide.
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