Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 162365 times)

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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #330 on: August 30, 2016, 12:04:22 AM »
Deaths from opioid overdoses have tripled since 2001, and now account for a much higher fraction of total deaths than the relative change in white women's life expectancy.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #331 on: August 30, 2016, 12:14:17 PM »
What are we arguing about here?

My claims are:

That there is a wide spread obesity epidemic in the US.

That obesity decreases the life expectancy for those who suffer from it.

When a large proportion of the population suffers from a disease that shortens their life expectancy, that will have an effect on the average life expectancy of the entire population.

Despite tremendous gains in treatments for cancer and other terminal illnesses the steady increases in life expectancy has declined and for some groups life expectancy has decreased slightly.

That many baby boomers, who are the first generation who suffer from obesity at epidemic levels are now reaching the age where we will start to see actual lives shortened by obesity.

Even if the big increase in mortality has been from causes not directly related to obesity, those who's lives have already been shortened because of obesity will have an effect on the average.

Which part(s) of that are you  disagreeing with?

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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #332 on: August 30, 2016, 12:38:43 PM »
As I mentioned before, I took issue with your claim that the decline in health due to obesity was showing itself already as drops in the life expectancy figures. You pointed to one demographic subgroup that had dropped by 0.1 years (while every other subgroup remained the same or increased, which is a hallmark of cherrypicking the data that you want).
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline lonely moa

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #333 on: August 30, 2016, 01:57:38 PM »
As I said the study did not point to a specific cause and life expectancy estimates usually don't. But here's the thing. With all the medical progress we've made since the 70s in treating cancer and geriatric care why have live expectancy rates stopped increasing?  Why have they started dropping.

Are you saying it's not obesity?


There's really no evidence that life expectancy has started dropping.  And as the article says, if this 5-week decline in life expectancy is real, the best guesses are that it is the result of alcohol abuse, drug abuse, and suicide.

There is a lot of evidence that the overall health of the population in the US especially is dropping.  Obesity related diseases and their complications are about to break the bank.  One might stave off the reaper longer than one's grand parents but who wants to be drooling into one's lap without feet, sight or memory?
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #334 on: August 30, 2016, 02:13:06 PM »
As I mentioned before, I took issue with your claim that the decline in health due to obesity was showing itself already as drops in the life expectancy figures. You pointed to one demographic subgroup that had dropped by 0.1 years (while every other subgroup remained the same or increased, which is a hallmark of cherrypicking the data that you want).

It sounds like you're arguing that obesity is not having an effect on life expectancy.

Is that the case?

You still haven't said which of the claims I made in my previous post you dispute.

The increases in life expectancy have stalled in the US, not just in that subgroup but in most.
Life expectancy in states correlates very closely with the obesity rates.
Obesity lowers life expectancy from between 8 and 14 years.
There is an obesity epidemic.
There is an obesity epidemic among those of the age to have their lives ended early now.


and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #335 on: August 30, 2016, 03:19:54 PM »
I disagree with the first, at least to the extent you implied, and I disagree that the correlation of the second implies the type of causation you're trying to demonstrate.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #336 on: August 30, 2016, 03:35:10 PM »
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting 14 years. This article certainly doesn't seem to support that claim:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK62367/
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #337 on: August 30, 2016, 04:53:39 PM »
I disagree with the first, at least to the extent you implied, and I disagree that the correlation of the second implies the type of causation you're trying to demonstrate.

I should have been more clear. Obesity has an impact on the individual's life expectancy.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #338 on: August 30, 2016, 05:05:30 PM »
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting 14 years. This article certainly doesn't seem to support that claim:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK62367/

NIH study finds extreme obesity may shorten life expectancy up to 14 years | National Institutes of Health (NIH)
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-study-finds-extreme-obesity-may-shorten-life-expectancy-14-years

The figures from the article you linked to are a bit out of date. (But a good article for discussing the issue none the less). What I'm arguing is perfectly consistent with your article.

Obese baby-boomers are now entering the U-shaped curve area for age/obesity and mortality.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #339 on: September 05, 2016, 04:32:02 PM »
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsr043743#t=article

This is one of the articles I was referring to
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Offline Billzbub

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #340 on: September 06, 2016, 09:48:32 AM »
I didn't read this thread yet, but I wanted to post this here before I lose it from my copy/paste buffer from the MS thread.  Sorry if this has already been covered.

estockly, without actually quoting you or scrolling back, I think you said that it takes 3-5 days to go into ketosis and about a month for the sugar cravings to go away.

It seems quite difficult while you still have sugar cravings to go on a <20g carb diet.  This weekend, I tried it for the heck of it.  On day 1, I succeeded.  I felt less sleepy and less hungry.  On day 2, I failed.  At that point, I thought I would just alternate days, but I failed on day 3, too.

I understand that I didn't even approach ketosis, but let's assume I had the willpower to go for 10 days at <20g of carbs per day and then I go to Krispy Kreme and eat 6 donuts.  Am I back to square one?  Do I need three to five more days now to re-enter ketosis and my month to get rid of sugar cravings restarts?

If so, it seems like an almost impossible task to get past that first month.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #341 on: September 06, 2016, 10:54:02 AM »
Go to Amazon and order Dr. Eric Westman's booklet. It costs like $5. It's the same info he provides his patients at his weight loss clinic at Duke University. It includes all the foods you can eat and what you should limit and what to avoid. There's a little more to it than <20g per day of carbs.  Following those recommendations you should be able to get through the induction phase.

When you go on LC your body takes two full days to start Keto-adaptation and 1 to 3 days longer longer to become fully keno adapted.

One reason it gets easier is you begin to notice results sooner.

As for going back into ketosis after a cheat, I've never seen a definitive answer. I've heard both. Your body takes time to re-adapt or you go right back into ketosis. I can't say based on my own experience because I've never done that.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #342 on: September 06, 2016, 10:56:45 AM »
Also, the cravings start to go away pretty quickly. For me the second week was the hardest and every day got progressively easier.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #343 on: September 06, 2016, 11:13:56 AM »
One last thing, if you do try again I suggest taking some baseline measurements.  Not just weight, but body measurements. Chest, waist, butt, thighs, upper arms, neck. All the places where subcutaneous fat gets stored.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline lonely moa

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #344 on: September 06, 2016, 01:49:00 PM »
One last thing, if you do try again I suggest taking some baseline measurements.  Not just weight, but body measurements. Chest, waist, butt, thighs, upper arms, neck. All the places where subcutaneous fat gets stored.


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I recently read that if one's ratio of total height to waist circumference should be less than .5.  Above that, one is likely to be insulin resistant, the first step to T2D.
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