Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 162373 times)

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #540 on: February 25, 2018, 06:29:13 PM »
I think it's fairly well established that the *introduction* of agriculture caused a drop in health (but also a drop in death by starvation). The thing is that we've figured some stuff out in the past several thousand years.
Really? What’s that ? Aside from learning how to make ourselves obese?
lonely moa's the one who used height as a proxy for health. We're taller now than those people who apparently ate non-agricultural diets and were all big and robust as a result, so on that logic we must be healthier than they were.

But also, we've been using agriculture for literally a hundred or more times longer than the obesity epidemic has been a thing.

Humans haven't been eating highly processed carbohydrates and sugar for all that long, and only encouraged to eat that way for the last half century.
And yet average height, lifespan and IQ has been going up and up.
Along with records being set by athletes with all kinds of diets.

Actually height has been going up and down since the stone age, and has been leveling off lately.

Weight has been going up and up lately and shows no sign of leveling off.

We've pretty much eliminated malnutrition and famine since the introduction of agriculture, but that doesn't mean we've the diet we blindly stumbled on is the ideal human diet.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #541 on: February 25, 2018, 07:01:33 PM »
Actually height has been going up and down since the stone age, and has been leveling off lately.

It depends on which populations you look at. As an aggregate, it's been fluctuating quite a lot and generally trending upward. It shot up dramatically in the US, Europe, and Central Asia over the 20th Century with the progress of modern medicine, and still appears to be on a general upward trend in most parts of the world. 


https://ourworldindata.org/human-height


Weight has been going up and up lately and shows no sign of leveling off.

Nobody's arguing that excessive sugar consumption isn't bad for you, and hasn't contributed to an increase in obesity in the United States over the last century or so.

What we're contesting are the unevidenced "Paleo Diet" myths which assert that some imaginary, overgeneralized, prehistoric population (patronizingly referred to as "our ancestors") were uniformly bigger, stronger, and healthier than modern day humans as a result of having eaten a meat-based diet with very few carbohydrates.


We've pretty much eliminated malnutrition and famine since the introduction of agriculture

You're kidding, right? 


...but that doesn't mean we've the diet we blindly stumbled on is the ideal human diet.

Yet here you are, proselytizing to us about your ideal human diet.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 08:28:32 PM by John Albert »

Offline lonely moa

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #542 on: March 11, 2018, 05:31:03 PM »
The Food Programme featuring Tim Noakes.  Good show.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09smnhd
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #543 on: March 16, 2018, 12:33:59 AM »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #544 on: March 27, 2018, 01:13:46 PM »
OK, I'm quoting two posts from two different threads to make this point. First:

Not to mention his insistence that Dr. Novella and the AHA and the Mayo clinic and my own doctor do not understand nutrition, implying that either they are ignoring the evidence or are incapable of understanding it.

That is not my claim at all, and never has been. My claim has been they are victims of their own bias. Pure and simple. The very thing that Dr. Novella tells others to be wary of.

So here's this graphic listing various (not all) kinds of bias....



I would argue that Novella, et. al. are victims of:

1; 3; 4; 5; 7; 8; 9; 12; 16; 17; 18; 20.

Taking a second look at this I will admit I may be vulnerable to a few myself:

4; 5; 7; 12; 14; 17
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 11:27:01 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline CarbShark

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LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #545 on: April 02, 2018, 12:33:33 AM »
I’m still waiting for CarbShark to provide evidence for his claim that high carbohydrate diets cause the fraction of smaller low density lipoprotein particles to increase over the larger/buoyant ones (the smaller ones are supposed to be able to penetrate the gaps between endothelial cells more easily than the larger ones and ‘clog’ arteries - which as an anatomical pathologist I don’t find a convincing argument anyway, I just want to know if there’s any evidence for the first step of the argument; I haven’t been able to find any).

Here’s one:

https://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/IPHY3700_Greene/pdfs/atkins/sharman.pdf



and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #546 on: April 02, 2018, 12:38:57 AM »
OK, I'm quoting two posts from two different threads to make this point. First:

Not to mention his insistence that Dr. Novella and the AHA and the Mayo clinic and my own doctor do not understand nutrition, implying that either they are ignoring the evidence or are incapable of understanding it.

That is not my claim at all, and never has been. My claim has been they are victims of their own bias. Pure and simple. The very thing that Dr. Novella tells others to be wary of.

(click to show/hide)

I would argue that Novella, et. al. are victims of:

1; 3; 4; 5; 7; 8; 9; 12; 16; 17; 18; 20.

Taking a second look at this I will admit I may be vulnerable to a few myself:

4; 5; 7; 12; 14; 17

Which one of those biases on your list inspired you to evaluate yourself as less biased than the majority of highly-educated, trained professionals speaking to their area of expertise?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 12:41:00 AM by John Albert »

Offline Tim44

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #547 on: April 02, 2018, 10:27:17 AM »
OK, I'm quoting two posts from two different threads to make this point. First:

Not to mention his insistence that Dr. Novella and the AHA and the Mayo clinic and my own doctor do not understand nutrition, implying that either they are ignoring the evidence or are incapable of understanding it.

That is not my claim at all, and never has been. My claim has been they are victims of their own bias. Pure and simple. The very thing that Dr. Novella tells others to be wary of.

(click to show/hide)

I would argue that Novella, et. al. are victims of:

1; 3; 4; 5; 7; 8; 9; 12; 16; 17; 18; 20.

Taking a second look at this I will admit I may be vulnerable to a few myself:

4; 5; 7; 12; 14; 17

Which one of those biases on your list inspired you to evaluate yourself as less biased than the majority of highly-educated, trained professionals speaking to their area of expertise?

We are all victims of these bias at some point in time.  Shark is a victim of 12 for self diagnosing and diagnosing others.

The two missing from the list that I see most on the Internet are:

devil's advocate/troll bias
conspiracy/victim bias

Offline Tim44

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #548 on: April 02, 2018, 10:41:56 AM »
It is very unwise to throw out previous studies and blindly claim that eating meat is not a health issue:

http://www.atkinsexposed.org/All_Long_Term_Studies_on_Atkins_a_Wash.htm
Quote
The biggest study on vegans to date compared over a thousand vegans in Europe to tens of thousands of meateaters and vegetarians. The meateaters, on average, were significantly heavier than the vegetarians, who in turn were significantly heavier than the vegans. Even after controlling for exercise, smoking, and other nondietary factors, vegans came out slimmest in every age group. Less than 2% of vegans were obese.[221]

http://www.atkinsfacts.org/Atkins_Distorted_His_Record_on_Cholesterol.htm
Quote
Atkins claimed a worsening of cholesterol levels typically only occurs "when carbohydrates are a large part of the diet."[318] We've known this to be false since 1929 when the Institute of American Meatpackers paid to see what would happen if people lived on an all-meat diet. The blood plasma of the unfortunate subjects was so filled with fat it "showed a milkiness" and one of the subjects' cholesterol shot up to 800![319]

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #549 on: April 02, 2018, 12:00:39 PM »
It is very unwise to throw out previous studies and blindly claim that eating meat is not a health issue:

http://www.atkinsexposed.org/All_Long_Term_Studies_on_Atkins_a_Wash.htm
Quote
The biggest study on vegans to date compared over a thousand vegans in Europe to tens of thousands of meateaters and vegetarians. The meateaters, on average, were significantly heavier than the vegetarians, who in turn were significantly heavier than the vegans. Even after controlling for exercise, smoking, and other nondietary factors, vegans came out slimmest in every age group. Less than 2% of vegans were obese.[221]

http://www.atkinsfacts.org/Atkins_Distorted_His_Record_on_Cholesterol.htm
Quote
Atkins claimed a worsening of cholesterol levels typically only occurs "when carbohydrates are a large part of the diet."[318] We've known this to be false since 1929 when the Institute of American Meatpackers paid to see what would happen if people lived on an all-meat diet. The blood plasma of the unfortunate subjects was so filled with fat it "showed a milkiness" and one of the subjects' cholesterol shot up to 800![319]

Seriously? That anti-atkins web site (both links from the same source) had been twisting science since its start, but it hasn't been updated in something like 15 year.

There have been a ton of studies since then.

And the idea that you don't "throw out previous studies" is kind of contradicted when the claim references a 15-year-old as the biggest study "to date."

And even then, this study does not refute the alternate theory of diet and nutrition (carbs/glucose/insulin leads to excess fat storage and obesity). According to that theory it doesn't matter if the energy comes from meat or plants, what matters is the carb content of the food. (And there are a number of vegetarian and, so I've heard, vegan LCHF dieters).

I found the study. Carbs are barely mentioned. The meat eaters consumed the most energy.

Diet and body mass index in 38 000 EPIC-Oxford meat-eaters, fish-eaters, vegetarians and vegans | International Journal of Obesity
Quote
In both men and women, meat-eaters had the highest intakes of energy, protein, total fat, saturated fat and monounsaturated fat, and vegans had the highest intakes of fibre and polyunsaturated fat.

For the second link, now they rely on a study of two subjects in 1929 (89 years ago) to make a point, and they misrepresent that evidence.

I found this "study" too.

THE EFFECT OF AN EXCLUSIVE MEAT DIET ON THE CHEMICAL CONSTITUENTS OF THE BLOOD

First that was the blood plasma of 1 subject (not subjects). Second, the "milkiness" comment is not in the study. Third, the study concludes there were no significant issues. Fourth, while one reading of blood cholesterol did show 800, that was the first reading on the new diet during the transition to the diet and the subsequent readings showed lower cholesterol than before the all-meat diet. Fifth, we know a lot more about cholesterol than we did 89 years ago.



and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Tim44

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #550 on: April 02, 2018, 12:57:10 PM »
It is very unwise to throw out previous studies and blindly claim that eating meat is not a health issue:

http://www.atkinsexposed.org/All_Long_Term_Studies_on_Atkins_a_Wash.htm
Quote
The biggest study on vegans to date compared over a thousand vegans in Europe to tens of thousands of meateaters and vegetarians. The meateaters, on average, were significantly heavier than the vegetarians, who in turn were significantly heavier than the vegans. Even after controlling for exercise, smoking, and other nondietary factors, vegans came out slimmest in every age group. Less than 2% of vegans were obese.[221]

http://www.atkinsfacts.org/Atkins_Distorted_His_Record_on_Cholesterol.htm
Quote
Atkins claimed a worsening of cholesterol levels typically only occurs "when carbohydrates are a large part of the diet."[318] We've known this to be false since 1929 when the Institute of American Meatpackers paid to see what would happen if people lived on an all-meat diet. The blood plasma of the unfortunate subjects was so filled with fat it "showed a milkiness" and one of the subjects' cholesterol shot up to 800![319]

Seriously? That anti-atkins web site (both links from the same source) had been twisting science since its start, but it hasn't been updated in something like 15 year.

There have been a ton of studies since then.

And the idea that you don't "throw out previous studies" is kind of contradicted when the claim references a 15-year-old as the biggest study "to date."

And even then, this study does not refute the alternate theory of diet and nutrition (carbs/glucose/insulin leads to excess fat storage and obesity). According to that theory it doesn't matter if the energy comes from meat or plants, what matters is the carb content of the food. (And there are a number of vegetarian and, so I've heard, vegan LCHF dieters).

I found the study. Carbs are barely mentioned. The meat eaters consumed the most energy.

Diet and body mass index in 38 000 EPIC-Oxford meat-eaters, fish-eaters, vegetarians and vegans | International Journal of Obesity
Quote
In both men and women, meat-eaters had the highest intakes of energy, protein, total fat, saturated fat and monounsaturated fat, and vegans had the highest intakes of fibre and polyunsaturated fat.

For the second link, now they rely on a study of two subjects in 1929 (89 years ago) to make a point, and they misrepresent that evidence.

I found this "study" too.

THE EFFECT OF AN EXCLUSIVE MEAT DIET ON THE CHEMICAL CONSTITUENTS OF THE BLOOD

First that was the blood plasma of 1 subject (not subjects). Second, the "milkiness" comment is not in the study. Third, the study concludes there were no significant issues. Fourth, while one reading of blood cholesterol did show 800, that was the first reading on the new diet during the transition to the diet and the subsequent readings showed lower cholesterol than before the all-meat diet. Fifth, we know a lot more about cholesterol than we did 89 years ago.

I think you know less about cholesterol than they did 80 years ago if you think it's good for your arteries.  Cholesterol, refined carbs, cigarettes, alcohol should all be kept to a minimum.

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #551 on: April 02, 2018, 01:28:50 PM »
It is very unwise to throw out previous studies and blindly claim that eating meat is not a health issue:

http://www.atkinsexposed.org/All_Long_Term_Studies_on_Atkins_a_Wash.htm
Quote
The biggest study on vegans to date compared over a thousand vegans in Europe to tens of thousands of meateaters and vegetarians. The meateaters, on average, were significantly heavier than the vegetarians, who in turn were significantly heavier than the vegans. Even after controlling for exercise, smoking, and other nondietary factors, vegans came out slimmest in every age group. Less than 2% of vegans were obese.[221]

http://www.atkinsfacts.org/Atkins_Distorted_His_Record_on_Cholesterol.htm
Quote
Atkins claimed a worsening of cholesterol levels typically only occurs "when carbohydrates are a large part of the diet."[318] We've known this to be false since 1929 when the Institute of American Meatpackers paid to see what would happen if people lived on an all-meat diet. The blood plasma of the unfortunate subjects was so filled with fat it "showed a milkiness" and one of the subjects' cholesterol shot up to 800![319]

Seriously? That anti-atkins web site (both links from the same source) had been twisting science since its start, but it hasn't been updated in something like 15 year.

There have been a ton of studies since then.

And the idea that you don't "throw out previous studies" is kind of contradicted when the claim references a 15-year-old as the biggest study "to date."

And even then, this study does not refute the alternate theory of diet and nutrition (carbs/glucose/insulin leads to excess fat storage and obesity). According to that theory it doesn't matter if the energy comes from meat or plants, what matters is the carb content of the food. (And there are a number of vegetarian and, so I've heard, vegan LCHF dieters).

I found the study. Carbs are barely mentioned. The meat eaters consumed the most energy.

Diet and body mass index in 38 000 EPIC-Oxford meat-eaters, fish-eaters, vegetarians and vegans | International Journal of Obesity
Quote
In both men and women, meat-eaters had the highest intakes of energy, protein, total fat, saturated fat and monounsaturated fat, and vegans had the highest intakes of fibre and polyunsaturated fat.

For the second link, now they rely on a study of two subjects in 1929 (89 years ago) to make a point, and they misrepresent that evidence.

I found this "study" too.

THE EFFECT OF AN EXCLUSIVE MEAT DIET ON THE CHEMICAL CONSTITUENTS OF THE BLOOD

First that was the blood plasma of 1 subject (not subjects). Second, the "milkiness" comment is not in the study. Third, the study concludes there were no significant issues. Fourth, while one reading of blood cholesterol did show 800, that was the first reading on the new diet during the transition to the diet and the subsequent readings showed lower cholesterol than before the all-meat diet. Fifth, we know a lot more about cholesterol than we did 89 years ago.

I think you know less about cholesterol than they did 80 years ago if you think it's good for your arteries.  Cholesterol, refined carbs, cigarettes, alcohol should all be kept to a minimum.

Cholesterol: False
refined carbs: True
cigarettes: True
alcohol: Not exactly

I think you know less about cholesterol than we did 10 years ago and even less than we know today.

Dietary cholesterol has minimal impact on serum cholesterol. (Eggs are fine.)

Serum cholesterol is tracked indirectly via various markers. Some cholesterol (HDL / LDL Large particles) is good for your.
Some cholesterol (LDL small dense particles) is unhealthy.
Fasting serum triglyceride levels are also linked with CVD and other health issues.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Tim44

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #552 on: April 02, 2018, 01:52:53 PM »

Cholesterol: False
refined carbs: True
cigarettes: True
alcohol: Not exactly

I think you know less about cholesterol than we did 10 years ago and even less than we know today.

Dietary cholesterol has minimal impact on serum cholesterol. (Eggs are fine.)

Serum cholesterol is tracked indirectly via various markers. Some cholesterol (HDL / LDL Large particles) is good for your.
Some cholesterol (LDL small dense particles) is unhealthy.
Fasting serum triglyceride levels are also linked with CVD and other health issues.

How many pounds of red meat do you eat per week?  How many eggs per week?  Max amount of alcohol in one day?

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #553 on: April 02, 2018, 02:08:39 PM »

Cholesterol: False
refined carbs: True
cigarettes: True
alcohol: Not exactly

I think you know less about cholesterol than we did 10 years ago and even less than we know today.

Dietary cholesterol has minimal impact on serum cholesterol. (Eggs are fine.)

Serum cholesterol is tracked indirectly via various markers. Some cholesterol (HDL / LDL Large particles) is good for your.
Some cholesterol (LDL small dense particles) is unhealthy.
Fasting serum triglyceride levels are also linked with CVD and other health issues.

How many pounds of red meat do you eat per week?  How many eggs per week?  Max amount of alcohol in one day?

I'd rather talk about science than anecdotes. Even my own.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline Tim44

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #554 on: April 02, 2018, 03:19:17 PM »

Cholesterol: False
refined carbs: True
cigarettes: True
alcohol: Not exactly

I think you know less about cholesterol than we did 10 years ago and even less than we know today.

Dietary cholesterol has minimal impact on serum cholesterol. (Eggs are fine.)

Serum cholesterol is tracked indirectly via various markers. Some cholesterol (HDL / LDL Large particles) is good for your.
Some cholesterol (LDL small dense particles) is unhealthy.
Fasting serum triglyceride levels are also linked with CVD and other health issues.

How many pounds of red meat do you eat per week?  How many eggs per week?  Max amount of alcohol in one day?

I'd rather talk about science than anecdotes. Even my own.

Are you sure or are you embarrassed?  You seem to love posting about anecdotes, how do I rate in your logical fallacy expertise?