Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 162362 times)

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Online John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #570 on: May 27, 2018, 08:30:23 AM »
Besides the chiropractic, applied kinesiology and Chinese medicine woo, Maffetone is such an extreme low-carb diet nutcase that he's made up his own fake medical condition which he calls "carbohydrate intolerance."


Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #571 on: May 27, 2018, 10:50:10 AM »
Besides the chiropractic, applied kinesiology and Chinese medicine woo, Maffetone is such an extreme low-carb diet nutcase that he's made up his own fake medical condition which he calls "carbohydrate intolerance."

Quote
The beginning of the process appears to be some combination of the trio of insulin resistance, chronic inflammation and increased body fat. In fact, stress (in all its physical, biochemical and mental forms), can further worsen, and even trigger, this trio.
Since around 1980, the author has referred to this complex array of dysfunctions and illnesses — the full spectrum of associated conditions — under the umbrella term Carbohydrate Intolerance (CI).
What's fake about it? The excess fat storage, the insulin resistance or the chronic inflammation?

 He made up the condition? Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.


carbohydrate intolerance - PubMed - NCBI
Diagnosing and Treating Intolerance to Carbohydrates in Children. - PubMed - NCBI
[Correlation between the presence and intensity of symptoms and the results of hydrogen breath tests in the diagnosis of carbohydrate intolerance]. - PubMed - NCBI
Screening for carbohydrate intolerance in pregnancy: a comparison of two tests and reassessment of a common approach. - PubMed - NCBI
Evaluation of postpartum carbohydrate intolerance and cardiovascular risk factors in women with gestational diabetes. - PubMed - NCBI
Prediction of persistent carbohydrate intolerance in patients with gestational diabetes. - PubMed - NCBI
Complex carbohydrate intolerance: diagnostic pitfalls and approach to management. - PubMed - NCBI
carbohydrate intolerance in pregnancy: incidence and neonatal outcomes. - PubMed - NCBI
carbohydrate intolerance after acute gastroenteritis--a disappearing problem in Polish children. - PubMed - NCBI
Enzyme replacement as an effective treatment for the common symptoms of complex carbohydrate intolerance. - PubMed - NCBI
THE ASSOCIATION OF AMYOTROPHIC LATERAL SCLEROSIS (MOTOR NEURON DISEASE) AND carbohydrate intolerance, A CLINICAL STUDY. - PubMed - NCBI
Glycosylated hemoglobin as a screening test for carbohydrate intolerance in pregnancy. - PubMed - NCBI
carbohydrate intolerance in infants with acute diarrhoea and its complications. - PubMed - NCBI
Acquired carbohydrate intolerance and cow milk protein-sensitive enteropathy in young infants. - PubMed - NCBI
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 11:33:51 AM by CarbShark »
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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #572 on: May 27, 2018, 11:25:26 AM »
Yeah, gotta say, John, if you're going to (rightfully) take CarbShark to task for failing to do even a basic level of investigation into Maffetone's credentials, you yourself should probably make the minimal effort to search a two-word phrase in the medical literature before saying this guy made it up in 2016.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #573 on: May 27, 2018, 11:52:33 AM »
I will grant that the fourth author of a five-author peer review study may have some questionable credentials.

The acupuncture does not bother me so much. I see no evidence that he practices acupuncture. (of course, if he's currently practicing or promoting acupuncture that would change my view)

The chiropractic doesn't bother me that much either. There are chiropractic techniques that have been found as beneficial as the standard of care and there are a number of Chiropractors who ignore the Chi crap and provide effective treatment.

The other alt-med stuff may be a little more troubling, but he's certainly not as far afield as most practitioners.

And, none of those issues have anything to do with the subject of the study he co-authored.

It was about the performance of athletes on LCHF diet.

And you still haven't answered the question about the other four authors.

Or does the fact that you can raise one ad hominem negate the entire study?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 12:18:40 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #574 on: May 27, 2018, 12:00:19 PM »
Maffetone also writes for a Chiropractic and Applied Kinesiology website called Spinewise, which identifies him as an Applied Kinesiologist and Chiropractor:

 http://www.spinewise.com.au/fit-but-unhealthy.aspx


BTW, thanks for that link. I know your intention was to impeach the credentials of the author by showing he wrote for a Chiropractic web site*, but it's actually a very good article that raises a number of issues (and doesn't promote or even mention Chiropractic )
Spinewise - Chiropractic, Osteopathy, Applied Kinesiology and Natural Healthcare

Quote
There are several issues to address here. First, our definition of health is wrong if we include fitness. One cannot be healthy while diseased. And, neither youth nor athleticism automatically confers health. Death comes when something goes wrong – some problem causes the heart to stop, a blood vessel clogs or some other pathology causes death. Second, most of these problems are preventable. But because as a society we worship athletes, and a lot of money is often involved, prevention is no longer the priority. Third, we must differentiate between those young athletes who die in their twenties, teens and younger, and those in the 35 and older age‐group who make up the majority of competitive athletes. Fourth, when this issue surfaces, which it does regularly, the lifestyle habits of the person are almost never mentioned as a possible cause – especially those factors that can contribute to heart disease, including diet, stress and even overtraining. And finally, a fifth consideration is an ethical one.




*EDIT: I'm not sure he actually wrote for that web site. Some of his articles on that site  (including the one linked to) appear verbatim in other publications and web sites. They may be simply reposting.

So, does giving a web site permission to repost you article also impeach his credentials?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 12:17:31 PM by CarbShark »
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #575 on: May 27, 2018, 06:08:36 PM »
So, does giving a web site permission to repost you article also impeach his credentials?

Not necessarily. His credentials don't require "impeachment" because they're not legit medical degrees in the first place.


The chiropractic doesn't bother me that much either. There are chiropractic techniques that have been found as beneficial as the standard of care and there are a number of Chiropractors who ignore the Chi crap and provide effective treatment.

The other alt-med stuff may be a little more troubling, but he's certainly not as far afield as most practitioners.

My point is that the guy has no education in actual medicine and an extensive history of promoting alt-med crap. Glossing over those obvious red flags only demonstrates your skeptical blindness when it comes to dietary issues.

Arguing that he can be trusted because his credentials aren't as bad as others is kind of silly. You're clearly overlooking this guy's extensive quack cred because he's promoting an idea that you happen to like. If he were shilling for "cupping" or magnetic bracelets or some other kind of popular athlete's woo you'd be right here with me pointing out that he's a fraud.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 06:30:27 PM by John Albert »

Online John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #576 on: May 27, 2018, 07:00:49 PM »
Okay, so I've spent a few hours doing a bit of reading about carbohydrate intolerance.

Quote
The beginning of the process appears to be some combination of the trio of insulin resistance, chronic inflammation and increased body fat. In fact, stress (in all its physical, biochemical and mental forms), can further worsen, and even trigger, this trio.
Since around 1980, the author has referred to this complex array of dysfunctions and illnesses — the full spectrum of associated conditions — under the umbrella term Carbohydrate Intolerance (CI).

What's fake about it? The excess fat storage, the insulin resistance or the chronic inflammation?

That's apparently not what "carbohydrate intolerance" means. Maffetone's view appears inconsistent with everything I'm reading about the condition from legit sources (ie. materials written by actual doctors outside of the purpose-driven low carb advocate websites).

The term "carbohydrate intolerance" means that the patient's digestive system is not producing the enzymes responsible for breaking down one or more particular carbohydrates (usually disaccharides and complex polysaccharides). It results in excessive intestinal gas and diarrhea. Apparently, it's a class of ailments not uncommon among infants and young children, that can also manifest during pregnancy. Among adults, lactose intolerance is the most common form of carbohydrate intolerance. The term is also used to describe certain symptoms of advanced diabetes.

Maffetone misuses the term to say that large segments of the population are intolerant of all carbohydrates in general. Reading further, this appears to be a common trope among low-carb diet promoters: "if you're gaining weight while eating a diet that contains carbs, then you're carbohydrate intolerant." When in fact the patient could simply be eating poorly and not getting enough exercise. It's not so much that "carbohydrate intolerance" doesn't exist, but that the terminology is being misused by low carb enthusiasts to promote their diet in much the same way as the "gluten intolerance" folks do.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 07:16:24 PM by John Albert »

Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #577 on: May 28, 2018, 12:42:03 PM »
How do you feel about the other four authors of the peer reviewed study?

I think that posting these "peer reviewed studies" as if they're conclusive evidence betrays a lack of understanding of how science works.
Your non answer is more exaggerated bullshit. Where did I ever claim that the evidence I posted from peer reviewed studies is conclusive?

That’s not how I work.

The studies I link to are evidence, and as with all other evidence they add to the understanding of the topic. Each study has its own strengths and weaknesses.

This study adds to an ongoing discussion about the athletes on LCHF diets in competition. And while it supports my view, there are some weaknesses in the study. (Too short, not enough time for full adaptation) but even so it adds to our knowledge

No where did I claim imply suggest or even hint that it was conclusive.

That’s something you made up, as you do.


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Offline CarbShark

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LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #578 on: May 28, 2018, 12:48:17 PM »
Arguing that he can be trusted because his credentials aren't as bad as others is kind of silly. You're clearly overlooking this guy's extensive quack cred because he's promoting an ideology that you happen to like. If he were shilling for "cupping" or magnetic bracelets or some other kind of popular athlete's woo you'd be right here with me pointing out that he's a fraud.

There’s a difference between exposing quacks and ad hominem arguments.

You are making an ad hominem. Noting more.

You’re completely ignoring any aspects of the study itself, the methodology, the data, the findings, conclusions or what it means and simply focusing on aspects one author’s background, ignoring the part of the same author’s back ground justifies his participation.

No, I would not be right there with you.

I would be looking at the evidence.

Not fixating on the ad hominem.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #579 on: May 30, 2018, 07:54:53 AM »
You are making an ad hominem. Nothing more.

No, I'm not. Go back and reread the conversation. I'm not dismissing the study on the premise that Maffetone is a quack; I'm pointing out that he is one. You argued that he wasn't a quack, and I presented the evidence that he is.

Phil Maffetone has no legitimate medical credentials, and he promotes all the most popular forms of quackery right alongside his low-cab diet woo. Calling Maffetone a "quack" is essentially no worse than calling somebody like Deepack Chopra a "quack."

There are very good good reasons why having a miseducation in quackery and a career promoting quackery is detrimental to one's scientific credibility.


You’re completely ignoring any aspects of the study itself, the methodology, the data, the findings, conclusions or what it means and simply focusing on aspects one author’s background, ignoring the part of the same author’s back ground justifies his participation.

No, I'm not. I just haven't addressed them yet.

Online John Albert

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #580 on: May 30, 2018, 02:31:17 PM »
The studies I link to are evidence

No, they're not. They're simply reports of studies. Some of those studies might be well-executed and some might be sloppy and inconclusive.

This is precisely the lack of understanding that I was referring to before.


as with all other evidence they add to the understanding of the topic.

Not necessarily. Some of them might weaken one's understanding of the subject. It all depends on the quality of the study. Some studies are crap.


Each study has its own strengths and weaknesses.

Which is precisely why they're not necessarily attributable as "evidence" for any particular point you're trying to make.

Lacking the training in how to evaluate studies of this nature, you're in no position to decide which are good and which are bad studies.

Judging by your posts in this and other threads, you seem to post links to any and all studies that have anything to do with low-carb diets, and then you blindly assert that they support your opinions about that regimen. In some cases the studies you've posted don't support your claims, and in some cases they've even weakened your position.

But regardless of the evidence, you refuse to ever admit you might be wrong about LCHF diets, in the same way that right now you're refusing to admit that Phil Maffetone is an alt-med quack.


Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #581 on: May 31, 2018, 11:33:59 AM »
This is exactly the kind of lies and misrepresentation that led me to put you on ignore, and are putting you back on ignore. ( I only saw and responded to your initial comments because they appeared in a quote).

The studies I link to are evidence

No, they're not. They're simply reports of studies. Some of those studies might be well-executed and some might be sloppy and inconclusive.

This is precisely the lack of understanding that I was referring to before.

Seriously? So studies published in peer review journals directly on topic are not evidence?

What do you imagine evidence is?

Quote
as with all other evidence they add to the understanding of the topic.

Not necessarily. Some of them might weaken one's understanding of the subject. It all depends on the quality of the study. Some studies are crap.

And yet they are peer reviewed. I think you have confused proof with evidence. I'm not claiming and have never claimed these studies prove anything. They are evidence. Evidence can be of various qualities, but if you don't like it or think that it's crap, that does not make it not evidence.

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Each study has its own strengths and weaknesses.

Which is precisely why they're not necessarily attributable as "evidence" for any particular point you're trying to make.

Again, you've confused the very basic concepts of proof and evidence. Evidence can lead to proof, depending on various factors, including the amount of evidence and the quality of evidence, but these studies are evidence, it's stupid to claim otherwise.

No one is claiming they are absolute proof.


Quote
Lacking the training in how to evaluate studies of this nature, you're in no position to decide which are good and which are bad studies.

That's what the peer review process is for.
Quote
Judging by your posts in this and other threads, you seem to post links to any and all studies that have anything to do with low-carb diets, and then you blindly assert that they support your opinions about that regimen. In some cases the studies you've posted don't support your claims, and in some cases they've even weakened your position.

More lies. I post links to numerous studies, yes. I do not blindly assert anything.

Quote
But regardless of the evidence, you refuse to ever admit you might be wrong about LCHF diets, in the same way that right now you're refusing to admit that Phil Maffetone is an alt-med quack.


More lies. My opinion on LCHF diets has evolved. There have been aspects I've been wrong about and I have adjusted my views (haven't see you do anything like that, you're just doing the knee jerk reaction every time).

The body of evidence does not refute the basic tenants of the alternate theory, so until that happens I still see the alternate theory has more validity than the mainstream theory.

And, early on in this discussion I readily admitted that there were issues with Maffetone, the fourth author on a five-author paper, but those issues did affect his area of expertise (fitness and training for athletic competition).

Further, if you are studying an alternate theory of science, medicine or nutrition, it would certainly behoove you work with a proponent of that theory in order to make sure the study is a fair representation of the alternate theory's claims. Too often studies are published with the LCHF or Ketogenic wing not meeting even the basic criteria of the alternate methods.

This has happened in several studies on this very topic, and this one was indeed better than most in its methodology, but still not perfect.
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Offline jt512

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #582 on: June 01, 2018, 05:07:16 AM »

Seriously? So studies published in peer review journals directly on topic are not evidence?

What do you imagine evidence is?

As a statistician, I can answer that question without the need for imagination:  Something (E) is evidence for one hypothesis (H1) over another (H2) if it increases the odds that H1 versus H2 is true.  So, let's say H1 is that an LCHF diet has some health benefit and H2 is that it doesn't.  Now, suppose E is (just) that "a peer reviewed paper has been published purporting to show a benefit for an LCHF diet."  Is E evidence for H1 over H2?  Well, what effect does it have on the probability that H1 is true versus H2 is true?  The fact is, the quality of most papers in the biomedical literature is pretty poor; nonetheless, E probably raises the probability of H1 over H2, but probably by only tiny amount.  So E, technically, IMO, is evidence for H1 over H2, albeit very weak evidence.  Obviously, the more we know about the paper, the journal, etc, the better we can judge its evidential value.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #583 on: June 01, 2018, 01:10:00 PM »

Seriously? So studies published in peer review journals directly on topic are not evidence?

What do you imagine evidence is?

As a statistician, I can answer that question without the need for imagination:  Something (E) is evidence for one hypothesis (H1) over another (H2) if it increases the odds that H1 versus H2 is true.  So, let's say H1 is that an LCHF diet has some health benefit and H2 is that it doesn't.  Now, suppose E is (just) that "a peer reviewed paper has been published purporting to show a benefit for an LCHF diet."  Is E evidence for H1 over H2?  Well, what effect does it have on the probability that H1 is true versus H2 is true?  The fact is, the quality of most papers in the biomedical literature is pretty poor; nonetheless, E probably raises the probability of H1 over H2, but probably by only tiny amount.  So E, technically, IMO, is evidence for H1 over H2, albeit very weak evidence.  Obviously, the more we know about the paper, the journal, etc, the better we can judge its evidential value.

Perfectly reasonable. (E - A peer reviewed RCT, or meta-analysis of such, as examples) is evidence. It may not be good evidence or conclusive evidence, and shouldn't be considered "proof," but to not consider it evidence is just silly.
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Online gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #584 on: June 01, 2018, 02:48:58 PM »
Yeah, it's evidence like discovering a new exoplanet is evidence for alien life.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

 

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