Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 162412 times)

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Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1995 on: December 05, 2019, 06:50:22 PM »
For the next time anyone suggests there is a consensus among medical professionals against LC diets

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451847619300788

Quote
For the 873 members who were attempting to lose weight, the most common dietary strategies were 14–24 h intermittent fasting (72%); very low-carbohydrate, ketogenic (46%); and calorie-restricted low-carbohydrate (26%). No other dietary strategy was reported by more than 15%. Overall, 78% were using more than one approach for weight loss, with the most common combinations being 14–24 h intermittent fasting with either a very low-carbohydrate, ketogenic (38%) or a calorie-restricted low-carbohydrate (17%) diet

• The physicians themselves tend to use intermittent fasting and ketogenic or low-carbohydrate diets.

• To their patients, they tend to recommend the same diets that they follow themselves, as well as several additional diets.


Just 0.8% of the female physicians are ‘obesity doctors,’ and the survey is regarding their strategies adopted for personal weight loss, not long term diet and nutrition strategies.



This is not a survey of doctors who practice obesity medicine, it is a survey of doctors.  No, they do not distinguish between short term and long term strategies.

Yes they do.  Look at the final table.  Intermittent fasting is equally popular as a weight loss and weight maintenance strategy.  Ketogenic diets are less popular as a weight loss strategy, and even less popular as a weight maintenance strategy.

But they’re not ‘experts.’  You’ve previously dismissed the advice given by physicians because you’ve previously claimed that physicians are ignorant of diet and nutrition.  Because it’s not included in their training (something as a medical graduate I dispute, there’s formal training and informal training).

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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1996 on: December 05, 2019, 08:16:12 PM »
Where did I claim they were experts.

The argument I'm making here is simply there is not an overwhelming majority of medical professionals opposed to LCHF diets.

Based on what I've seen and read, I would suggest that if obesity specialists and experts were polled they would be even more accepting.

As to Intermittent Fasting, not only is it nearly as popular as LC/Ketogenic diets (If you add those two together) it's also used most frequently by these doctors with LC/Ketogenic diets.  For that matter I do intermittent fasting regularly, even though there is no evidence to show it's healthy in the long term. If you're aware of such evidence you should share it, otherwise stop proselytizing it while at the same time criticizing others for proselytizing diets that also don't have long term evidence.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1997 on: December 05, 2019, 09:41:49 PM »
Where did I claim they were experts.

The argument I'm making here is simply there is not an overwhelming majority of medical professionals opposed to LCHF diets.

Based on what I've seen and read, I would suggest that if obesity specialists and experts were polled they would be even more accepting.

As to Intermittent Fasting, not only is it nearly as popular as LC/Ketogenic diets (If you add those two together) it's also used most frequently by these doctors with LC/Ketogenic diets.  For that matter I do intermittent fasting regularly, even though there is no evidence to show it's healthy in the long term. If you're aware of such evidence you should share it, otherwise stop proselytizing it while at the same time criticizing others for proselytizing diets that also don't have long term evidence.

46% of the female physicians used a ketogenic diet for personal weight loss, and 36% advised it for their overweight patients for weight loss (there’s no mention whether they recommended it for their patients of normal healthy body weight), so actually a majority of female physicians didn’t either use it or recommend it).  You can’t just add ketogenic diet (46%) and low carbohydrate (26%), and get 72% (equal to intermittent fasting).  Low carbohydrate is also restricted calorie (1200-1300 kcal/day), so it’s likely to be ketogenic anyway.

72% of female physicians used intermittent fasting for personal weight loss, and 75% for personal weight maintenance, so a large majority used it.  36% of female physicians recommended it for their overweight patients, so they do what I do - use intermittent fasting, but don’t recommend it.  I’ve stated many times intermittent fasting is not for everyone.  I’m just interested that’s it’s so popular in female physicians.

You might like to think your LCHF ketogenic diet would be more ‘popular’ in obesity doctors, but you haven’t provided any supporting evidence.

I’ve never proselytised for intermittent fasting.  I don’t recommend it.  I’m not aware of any evidence that it’s healthy long term, or that it’s more or less effective than any other strategy for weight loss.  But my point is that it’s a strategy, not a diet.  You can eat whatever food you want with it, ranging from my low fat/high carbohydrate vegetarian diet to your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet.  It’s a strategy that’s worked for me.

High fat diets could have adverse health effects in the long term.  You need to have evidence that it’s safe in order for you to persistently recommend it.

And, by the way, it’s a survey of self selected female physicians, so it’s very much non-representative.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1998 on: December 05, 2019, 09:55:22 PM »


Quote
The most common personal dietary strategies were 14–24 h intermittent fasting (72%); very low-carbohydrate, ketogenic (46%); and calorie-restricted low-carbohydrate (26%).

VLC-K and CR-LC are two different low carb strategies, so, yes you can add those together.

Further, most of those doing IF are doing it with one of the two LC strategies.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #1999 on: December 05, 2019, 10:33:16 PM »


Quote
The most common personal dietary strategies were 14–24 h intermittent fasting (72%); very low-carbohydrate, ketogenic (46%); and calorie-restricted low-carbohydrate (26%).

VLC-K and CR-LC are two different low carb strategies, so, yes you can add those together.
They are described as "20–30 g carbohydrates/day, or any carbohydrate count that elicits ketosis" and "1200–1300 calories/day", respectively. How are those mutually exclusive?
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2000 on: December 05, 2019, 10:34:45 PM »


Quote
The most common personal dietary strategies were 14–24 h intermittent fasting (72%); very low-carbohydrate, ketogenic (46%); and calorie-restricted low-carbohydrate (26%).

VLC-K and CR-LC are two different low carb strategies, so, yes you can add those together.

Further, most of those doing IF are doing it with one of the two LC strategies.


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But an unknown percentage of the female physicians would have ticked more than one box.  Some would have ticked ‘ketogenic,’ ‘low carbohydrate,’ and ‘low carbohydrate calorie restricted.’  On a Venn diagram, they’re not non-overlapping.

You don’t have any evidence that most of the female physicians doing intermittent fasting are on a ketogenic diet (which is your hobbyhorse).  72% use intermittent fasting.  46% ketogenic.  The percentage using both could range from 18% (72% minus 46%) to 46%.

But it’s irrelevant anyway.  Intermittent fasting isn’t a diet, it’s a strategy, which can be used, or not used, with any diet.  I’m just interested that it is so popular in a self selected group of female physicians, who use it both short and long term.

Another point is that 31% of the female physicians used ketogenic diets for weight maintenance, so a considerable but unknown percentage using it for weight loss dropped it for long term weight maintenance depending on how much overlap there is in the Venn diagram.  46% could have used it for weight loss, and 31% could have used it for weight maintenance (they’re weren’t overweight, or used a different diet or strategy), or 46% could have used it for weight loss, and then 2/3 of them (31/46) continued, possibly indicating that 1/3 discontinued it (possibly due to it being too difficult or inconvenient for long term use, I just don’t know).
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Offline gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2001 on: December 05, 2019, 10:50:26 PM »
You don’t have any evidence that most of the female physicians doing intermittent fasting are on a ketogenic diet (which is your hobbyhorse).  72% use intermittent fasting.  46% ketogenic.  The percentage using both could range from 18% (72% minus 46%) to 46%.
The article says 38% use IF with ketogenic. Last I checked 38% was most of 72%.
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2002 on: December 06, 2019, 01:13:26 AM »
You don’t have any evidence that most of the female physicians doing intermittent fasting are on a ketogenic diet (which is your hobbyhorse).  72% use intermittent fasting.  46% ketogenic.  The percentage using both could range from 18% (72% minus 46%) to 46%.
The article says 38% use IF with ketogenic. Last I checked 38% was most of 72%.

It’s confusingly worded.  78% were using more than one approach for weight loss.  38% were using intermittent fasting with a ketogenic diet.  Is the 38% of all the physicians attempting to lose weight or 38% of the 78%?  But if the first, 38% (overall) of 72% (overall) using intermittent fasting isn’t ‘most’ - it’s just barely over 50%.

But anyway, it’s a rubbish survey.  Self selected.  A limited population of participants.  It’s not worth giving much consideration to it.
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Offline gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2003 on: December 06, 2019, 08:14:14 AM »
Well CarbShark said most of the IF people were using one of the two LC strategies as well. Participants picked their two most common diets/strategies, so when we add the 17% using calorie restricted low-carb, that's 55%, which is definitely most of 72%.

Also funny that now it's a garbage survey but you had no complaints before
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 08:19:32 AM by gmalivuk »
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2004 on: December 06, 2019, 11:32:45 AM »
Well CarbShark said most of the IF people were using one of the two LC strategies as well. Participants picked their two most common diets/strategies, so when we add the 17% using calorie restricted low-carb, that's 55%, which is definitely most of 72%.

Also funny that now it's a garbage survey but you had no complaints before

I had complaints about it in my very first comment in relation to it when I noted that just 0.8% of the female physicians in the survey were obesity doctors.

My previous comment still applies.  78% of the self selected female physicians were using more than one strategy.  38% were using intermittent fasting and a ketogenic diet.  Is that 38% of the entire group?  Or the subgroup attempting to lose weight?  Or 38% of the 78% using 2 or more strategies?  The same for low carbohydrate calorie restricted  - 17% used it in addition to intermittent fasting.  Is that 17% of the entire group, 17% of the subgroup attempting to lose weight, or 17% of the 78% using 2 or more strategies?

Only if the 38% and the 17% apply to the entire group can you add the two and divide it into the 72% using intermittent fasting.  And that’s assuming that there’s no overlap between the 38% and the 17%.  Some physicians might have checked ketogenic diets along with low carbohydrate/ calorie restricted, because the latter will probably cause ketosis.

But anyone, even if you take the first assumption - 38% plus 17% (55%) isn’t most of 72%.  For ‘most’ I’d want 90+%.

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Offline gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2005 on: December 06, 2019, 12:34:58 PM »
I'm sorry you don't understand what "most" means. I'm pretty sure nearly every other English speaker would be fine with saying that something true of more than 3/4 of a group is true of "most" of them.

And there's no overlap between people who picked IF+keto and people who picked IF+lowcal, because they only picked 2 options and that overlap would require someone to have picked three.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2006 on: December 06, 2019, 04:18:25 PM »
I'm sorry you don't understand what "most" means. I'm pretty sure nearly every other English speaker would be fine with saying that something true of more than 3/4 of a group is true of "most" of them.

And there's no overlap between people who picked IF+keto and people who picked IF+lowcal, because they only picked 2 options and that overlap would require someone to have picked three.

Well, why don’t you start a thread with a poll asking other readers what they’d define ‘most’ as being?  I’m getting tired of your nitpicking.  The article stated that 78% of the female physicians who bothered to complete the survey selected more than one strategy for weight loss, not that they selected two and only two strategies.  For all I (and you) know they could have used two, three or more strategies.

It’s an interesting survey, nothing more.
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Offline gmalivuk

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2007 on: December 06, 2019, 08:41:00 PM »
They could have used a hundred different strategies, but according to the article, "Participants were requested to pick their two most commonly used strategies."

In other words, they didn't pick three, so there's no overlap between people who picked IF+keto and IF+lowcal, regardless of how many participants may in fact have done all three.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2008 on: December 06, 2019, 09:11:41 PM »
They could have used a hundred different strategies, but according to the article, "Participants were requested to pick their two most commonly used strategies."

In other words, they didn't pick three, so there's no overlap between people who picked IF+keto and IF+lowcal, regardless of how many participants may in fact have done all three.

I see.  It’s in note a in table 2.  But if you add the percentages, 190% of participants used at least one of the strategies for themselves for weight loss, so not all listed two most commonly used strategies.  And the figures don’t add up.  78% used more than one strategy (if it were just two strategies, then why didn’t they say so?), meaning that 22% used one strategy only.  So 78% had to use more than one strategy to get to 168%, which is more than twice 78%, indicating that some picked more than two strategies [assume that there were 100 participants, 22 picked one strategy - giving 22 picks, if 78 picked just two strategies that’s 156 picks, that’s a total of 178 picks.  But there were 190 picks, meaning 12% had to have picked 3].

It’s still a rubbish survey, interesting though it is.  It’s online, with self selected participants.  And the participants aren’t experts.  Would you accept dietary and nutrition advice from a pathologist?  Really?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 09:51:45 PM by bachfiend »
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Offline bachfiend

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Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2009 on: December 07, 2019, 06:51:52 PM »
I’ve recently been looking at the Sisters Study regarding a paper claiming that hair dyes increase the incidence of breast cancer in Afro-American women with a family history of breast cancer in a sister (which I think is shameless data mining, looking for chance statistically significant p-values in a large data set), but the investigators also published:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30926951/

which noted that the risk of obesity is less if the women either ate breakfast everyday or never.  Eating breakfast irregularly (3-4 times a week) is associated with a higher incidence of obesity.  Breakfast isn’t ‘the most important meal of the day,’ and can be dropped, as part of intermittent fasting. 
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