Author Topic: LCHF and healthy eating  (Read 162285 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2883
    • jt512
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2010 on: December 07, 2019, 07:01:04 PM »
I’ve recently been looking at the Sisters Study regarding a paper claiming that hair dyes increase the incidence of breast cancer in Afro-American women with a family history of breast cancer in a sister (which I think is shameless data mining, looking for chance statistically significant p-values in a large data set), but the investigators also published:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30926951/

which noted that the risk of obesity is less if the women either ate breakfast everyday or never.  Eating breakfast irregularly (3-4 times a week) is associated with a higher incidence of obesity.  Breakfast isn’t ‘the most important meal of the day,’ and can be dropped, as part of intermittent fasting.

Awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom that could have been used to come up with that one statistically significant finding.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Online bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2763
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2011 on: December 07, 2019, 07:12:01 PM »
I’ve recently been looking at the Sisters Study regarding a paper claiming that hair dyes increase the incidence of breast cancer in Afro-American women with a family history of breast cancer in a sister (which I think is shameless data mining, looking for chance statistically significant p-values in a large data set), but the investigators also published:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30926951/

which noted that the risk of obesity is less if the women either ate breakfast everyday or never.  Eating breakfast irregularly (3-4 times a week) is associated with a higher incidence of obesity.  Breakfast isn’t ‘the most important meal of the day,’ and can be dropped, as part of intermittent fasting.

Awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom that could have been used to come up with that one statistically significant finding.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

What exactly are the ‘awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom’ involved (besides the shameless data mining of the Sisters Study)?

I just found it interesting.  It would be a useful article to cite to people who insist that not eating breakfast causes obesity.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2883
    • jt512
LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2012 on: December 07, 2019, 07:48:55 PM »
I’ve recently been looking at the Sisters Study regarding a paper claiming that hair dyes increase the incidence of breast cancer in Afro-American women with a family history of breast cancer in a sister (which I think is shameless data mining, looking for chance statistically significant p-values in a large data set), but the investigators also published:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30926951/

which noted that the risk of obesity is less if the women either ate breakfast everyday or never.  Eating breakfast irregularly (3-4 times a week) is associated with a higher incidence of obesity.  Breakfast isn’t ‘the most important meal of the day,’ and can be dropped, as part of intermittent fasting.

Awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom that could have been used to come up with that one statistically significant finding.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

What exactly are the ‘awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom’ involved (besides the shameless data mining of the Sisters Study)?

Think of all the ways that breakfast eating and body weight could be compared. They could have looked at obesity vs other, overweight or obese vs other, or looked for a trend with body weight. And they could have chosen numerous frequency cut points. The chance that among all such comparisons one might be statistically significant by chance is quite high.

If the specific comparison they used was preplanned, I‘ll eat a big.

Quote
I just found it interesting.  It would be a useful article to cite to people who insist that not eating breakfast causes obesity.

I would consider it too unreliable.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Online bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2763
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2013 on: December 07, 2019, 08:42:10 PM »
I’ve recently been looking at the Sisters Study regarding a paper claiming that hair dyes increase the incidence of breast cancer in Afro-American women with a family history of breast cancer in a sister (which I think is shameless data mining, looking for chance statistically significant p-values in a large data set), but the investigators also published:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30926951/

which noted that the risk of obesity is less if the women either ate breakfast everyday or never.  Eating breakfast irregularly (3-4 times a week) is associated with a higher incidence of obesity.  Breakfast isn’t ‘the most important meal of the day,’ and can be dropped, as part of intermittent fasting.

Awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom that could have been used to come up with that one statistically significant finding.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

What exactly are the ‘awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom’ involved (besides the shameless data mining of the Sisters Study)?

Think of all the ways that breakfast eating and body weight could be compared. They could have looked at obesity vs other, overweight or obese vs other, or looked for a trend with body weight. And they could have chosen numerous frequency cut points. The chance that among all such comparisons one might be statistically significant by chance is quite high.

If the specific comparison they used was preplanned, I‘ll eat a big.

Quote
I just found it interesting.  It would be a useful article to cite to people who insist that not eating breakfast causes obesity.

I would consider it too unreliable.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

Here’s the full paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6766424/

Point out the researchers’ degrees of freedom making the results ‘too unreliable.’ 

I don’t find the results particularly surprising.  It’s best to either have breakfast everyday, or not at all.  It’s best to have regular habits with diet (eat food, not too much, mostly plant-based, cooked from mostly single ingredients in the home), instead of irregular random meals often outside the home in fast food restaurants or as manufactured preprepared ‘meals.’

Are you one of these people who believes breakfast is important?  The most important meal of the day?
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2883
    • jt512
LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2014 on: December 07, 2019, 08:54:11 PM »
I’ve recently been looking at the Sisters Study regarding a paper claiming that hair dyes increase the incidence of breast cancer in Afro-American women with a family history of breast cancer in a sister (which I think is shameless data mining, looking for chance statistically significant p-values in a large data set), but the investigators also published:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30926951/

which noted that the risk of obesity is less if the women either ate breakfast everyday or never.  Eating breakfast irregularly (3-4 times a week) is associated with a higher incidence of obesity.  Breakfast isn’t ‘the most important meal of the day,’ and can be dropped, as part of intermittent fasting.

Awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom that could have been used to come up with that one statistically significant finding.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

What exactly are the ‘awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom’ involved (besides the shameless data mining of the Sisters Study)?

Think of all the ways that breakfast eating and body weight could be compared. They could have looked at obesity vs other, overweight or obese vs other, or looked for a trend with body weight. And they could have chosen numerous frequency cut points. The chance that among all such comparisons one might be statistically significant by chance is quite high.

If the specific comparison they used was preplanned, I‘ll eat a big.

Quote
I just found it interesting.  It would be a useful article to cite to people who insist that not eating breakfast causes obesity.

I would consider it too unreliable.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

Here’s the full paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6766424/

Point out the researchers’ degrees of freedom making the results ‘too unreliable.’ 

I already did. It’s the number of ways that comparisons could have been made that makes the finding questionable.

Quote
I don’t find the results particularly surprising.  It’s best to either have breakfast everyday, or not at all.


Says who besides you and those data miners?



Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Online bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2763
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2015 on: December 07, 2019, 09:18:39 PM »
I’ve recently been looking at the Sisters Study regarding a paper claiming that hair dyes increase the incidence of breast cancer in Afro-American women with a family history of breast cancer in a sister (which I think is shameless data mining, looking for chance statistically significant p-values in a large data set), but the investigators also published:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30926951/

which noted that the risk of obesity is less if the women either ate breakfast everyday or never.  Eating breakfast irregularly (3-4 times a week) is associated with a higher incidence of obesity.  Breakfast isn’t ‘the most important meal of the day,’ and can be dropped, as part of intermittent fasting.

Awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom that could have been used to come up with that one statistically significant finding.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

What exactly are the ‘awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom’ involved (besides the shameless data mining of the Sisters Study)?

Think of all the ways that breakfast eating and body weight could be compared. They could have looked at obesity vs other, overweight or obese vs other, or looked for a trend with body weight. And they could have chosen numerous frequency cut points. The chance that among all such comparisons one might be statistically significant by chance is quite high.

If the specific comparison they used was preplanned, I‘ll eat a big.

Quote
I just found it interesting.  It would be a useful article to cite to people who insist that not eating breakfast causes obesity.

I would consider it too unreliable.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

Here’s the full paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6766424/

Point out the researchers’ degrees of freedom making the results ‘too unreliable.’ 

I already did. It’s the number of ways that comparisons could have been made that makes the finding questionable.

Quote
I don’t find the results particularly surprising.  It’s best to either have breakfast everyday, or not at all.


Says who besides you and those data miners?



Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

Well, the authors reported that having breakfast irregularly 3 to 4 times a week is associated with a higher incidence of obesity (BMI > 30 kg/m2.  Is there any data indicating that it’s associated with a lower incidence of being overweight (BMI between 25 and 30)?

It’s not just I who states that it’s important to have regular habits regarding diet, including either always having breakfast or never having breakfast.  Many nutritionists and psychologists say the same thing.  People become overweight or obese because of bad habits.

Do you think it’s a good idea to have irregular meals during the day, eating food anywhere anywhen?  Relying on manufactured convenience food?  If you have breakfast most days, but skip it several days a week, you’re likely to replace it with junk food later on.

I don’t find the study’s findings to be surprising enough to reject them immediately as you do.  As I more or less did with a companion paper on hair dyes and breast cancer (I’m more sceptical about this link).

Here’s someone who agrees with me:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/upshot/sorry-theres-nothing-magical-about-breakfast.html
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 09:32:34 PM by bachfiend »
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline gmalivuk

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3170
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2016 on: December 08, 2019, 12:12:49 AM »
jt isn't rejecting the study because the conclusion is too implausible, but because the conclusion is very specific and there's no indication that they didn't also check other meals or other frequencies or other health outcomes and then just report on the significant one.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2883
    • jt512
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2017 on: December 08, 2019, 12:59:22 AM »
jt isn't rejecting the study because the conclusion is too implausible, but because the conclusion is very specific and there's no indication that they didn't also check other meals or other frequencies or other health outcomes and then just report on the significant one.


Yes, specific, and somewhat arbitrary, since many other analyses would also have been reasonable choices.  Even if they did not perform those analyses, if they would have had their first analysis been non-significant, it would still be p-hacking.  Thus, in the absence of a pre-registered protocol specifying that this was the one analysis they intended to perform, I would consider the analysis exploratory.
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13106
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2018 on: December 08, 2019, 01:09:13 AM »
Nothing to do with low carb. Maybe start a new thread for proselytizing IF and skipping breakfast?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Offline jt512

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2883
    • jt512
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2019 on: December 08, 2019, 01:11:36 AM »
I’ve recently been looking at the Sisters Study regarding a paper claiming that hair dyes increase the incidence of breast cancer in Afro-American women with a family history of breast cancer in a sister (which I think is shameless data mining, looking for chance statistically significant p-values in a large data set), but the investigators also published:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30926951/

which noted that the risk of obesity is less if the women either ate breakfast everyday or never.  Eating breakfast irregularly (3-4 times a week) is associated with a higher incidence of obesity.  Breakfast isn’t ‘the most important meal of the day,’ and can be dropped, as part of intermittent fasting.

Awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom that could have been used to come up with that one statistically significant finding.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

What exactly are the ‘awful lot of researcher degrees of freedom’ involved (besides the shameless data mining of the Sisters Study)?

Think of all the ways that breakfast eating and body weight could be compared. They could have looked at obesity vs other, overweight or obese vs other, or looked for a trend with body weight. And they could have chosen numerous frequency cut points. The chance that among all such comparisons one might be statistically significant by chance is quite high.

If the specific comparison they used was preplanned, I‘ll eat a big.

Quote
I just found it interesting.  It would be a useful article to cite to people who insist that not eating breakfast causes obesity.

I would consider it too unreliable.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

Here’s the full paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6766424/

Point out the researchers’ degrees of freedom making the results ‘too unreliable.’ 

I already did. It’s the number of ways that comparisons could have been made that makes the finding questionable.

Quote
I don’t find the results particularly surprising.  It’s best to either have breakfast everyday, or not at all.


Says who besides you and those data miners?



Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

Well, the authors reported that having breakfast irregularly 3 to 4 times a week is associated with a higher incidence of obesity (BMI > 30 kg/m2.  Is there any data indicating that it’s associated with a lower incidence of being overweight (BMI between 25 and 30)?

It’s not just I who states that it’s important to have regular habits regarding diet, including either always having breakfast or never having breakfast.  Many nutritionists and psychologists say the same thing.  People become overweight or obese because of bad habits.


Hmm, "overweight or obese."  It seems strange that eating meals precisely 3 to 5 days a week is associated with obesity, but not non-obese overweight.  And speaking of bad habits, people become overweight or obese exactly for the bad habit of consuming more energy that they expend.  The bad(?) habit of not being in the habit of eating breakfast more than 5 days per week but less than 3 is news to me.


Quote
Do you think it’s a good idea to have irregular meals during the day, eating food anywhere anywhen?


I don't think it makes much difference as long as you don't in the long run eat more than you burn.


Quote
If you have breakfast most days, but skip it several days a week, you’re likely to replace it with junk food later on.


And the junk food you eat before lunch would have more calories than the breakfast you skip?  You're just speculating.

Quote
I don’t find the study’s findings to be surprising enough to reject them immediately as you do.


I'm not rejecting them.  I'm just not convinced by them, given the large number of equally reasonable (if not more reasonable) alternative analyses that could have been performed and the improbability that the one they published was precisely the one they intended to investigate.

Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

Online bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2763
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2020 on: December 08, 2019, 01:40:08 AM »
Nothing to do with low carb. Maybe start a new thread for proselytizing IF and skipping breakfast?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t proselytise for intermittent fasting.  I have never recommended that other people adopt it.  I have repeatedly stated that it’s not for everyone.

But I have also stated that it’s a myth that breakfast is the most important meal of the day.  And it’s something that many people agree with, including health professionals.

I will never start a thread claiming health benefits from intermittent fasting or permanently dropping breakfast, unlike you with your continual proselytising for your low carbohydrate/high fat ketogenic diet.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline CarbShark

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 13106
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2021 on: December 08, 2019, 01:46:21 AM »
Fine just start a thread and discuss it to your hearts content


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.

Online bachfiend

  • Not Any Kind of Moderator
  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2763
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2022 on: December 08, 2019, 02:11:51 AM »
Fine just start a thread and discuss it to your hearts content


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can’t you read?  I stated that I’m never going to start a thread on intermittent fasting or dropping breakfast permanently.  I don’t proselytise for either, unlike you for your diet.

But I think you should either always have breakfast, or never have breakfast.  It’s a matter of personal choice.  Skipping breakfast several days a week is likely to leave the person hungry on those days, and more likely to eat junk food later in the day (not that the heavily marketed and advertised breakfast foods are particularly good). 

My only recommendations are to eat food (not heavily processed products high in fats, sugars and salt), not too much, mainly plant-based, and to prepare and consume most of your meals in your home from single basic ingredients (which excludes meat substitutes such as Beyond Burger, because they’re heavily processed).  Or even your beef.

The fact remains.  If you eat more calories than you expend, you’re going to gain weight regardless.
Gebt ihr ihr ihr Buch zurück?

Offline lonely moa

  • A rather tough old bird.
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5095
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2023 on: December 08, 2019, 03:42:59 AM »

... it’s a myth that breakfast is the most important meal of the day.


Totally.  It might be the most important to miss.
"Pull the goalie", Malcolm Gladwell.

Offline Harry Black

  • International Man of Mystery
  • Global Moderator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 17368
Re: LCHF and healthy eating
« Reply #2024 on: December 08, 2019, 06:56:15 AM »
Administrator Comment This thread is for LCHF discussions and should be kept as such.

 

personate-rain