Author Topic: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got  (Read 24328 times)

Redamare and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Redamare

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3279
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2015, 09:16:12 PM »
Maybe make them live on a special island.

Not to waste a tropical island, though. One of those cold, silty, shitty islands of the northern coasts.
"redamare has kicked this thread's ass" -champagnej

Certainty is the enemy of wisdom.

--RED-uh-MAR-ay--

Offline Pusher Robot

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2204
  • Do you have stairs in your house?
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2015, 12:44:10 AM »
Holy false dilemmas, Batman.

What's the false dilemma?  I only said that it's not the same question unless you believe everything wise should be mandatory.

I personally think mandatory generally safe vaccines for dangerous diseases are justifiable, but obviously it depends on the degree of danger.  For a disease that kills or cripples 1 in 100?  No question.  1 in 1000? I think so.  1 in 100,000?  Starts to become a closer call.
A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by turning the power off and on.
Knight, seeing what the student was doing, spoke sternly: “You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong.”
Knight turned the machine off and on.
The machine worked.

Offline Johnny Slick

  • "Goddammit, Slick."
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11990
  • Fake Ass Skeptic
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2015, 12:46:48 AM »
Buuuuuuuuuuuulllshiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. I just pointed out to you my own viewpoint, which offers a third POV that your false dilemma neglected, literally in the same exact post you quoted part of.
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline Pusher Robot

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2204
  • Do you have stairs in your house?
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2015, 12:55:26 AM »
Buuuuuuuuuuuulllshiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. I just pointed out to you my own viewpoint, which offers a third POV that your false dilemma neglected, literally in the same exact post you quoted part of.

Just so we're clear, here are the two "poles" I posited:

1. You do believe everything wise should be mandatory.
2. You do not believe everything wise should be mandatory.

How is this a false dilemma?  This is elementary logic.  P and ~P cannot both be true.
A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by turning the power off and on.
Knight, seeing what the student was doing, spoke sternly: “You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong.”
Knight turned the machine off and on.
The machine worked.

Offline Johnny Slick

  • "Goddammit, Slick."
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11990
  • Fake Ass Skeptic
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2015, 01:35:32 AM »
No, it really didn't. Your poles were:

1. Everything wise should be mandatory.
2. I loev ayn rand soooooooooooooo much

Unfortunately for this dilemma, there are also a great deal of people who do in fact think that some things (such as circumcision) should not be mandatory and other things (such as vaccinations) should be, and that in the particular case of vaccinations it is something that is not only both wide and mandatory but a circumstance wherein the greatest level of wisdom is in fact in the mandatory. You imply that people who think that folks who believe "vaccination is wise" as well as "mandatory vaccination is wise" can also only believe "a stitch in time saves nine is wise, therefore pre-emptive hemming should be mandatory". It is a ridiculous position to take, which is why somebody named a fallacy after it.
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline Pusher Robot

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2204
  • Do you have stairs in your house?
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2015, 02:19:25 AM »
You imply that people who think that folks who believe "vaccination is wise" as well as "mandatory vaccination is wise" can also only believe "a stitch in time saves nine is wise, therefore pre-emptive hemming should be mandatory". It is a ridiculous position to take, which is why somebody named a fallacy after it.

I don't believe I did any such thing.  I only said that only in the case that you believe all wise things should be mandatory is there not even a question of whether any given thing should be mandatory or not, once you determine whether it is wise.  In that case, the question "should it be mandatory" is redundant, because it is always the same as the question "is it wise?"  In all other cases, the question does exist and could be answered by any number of means, none of which I took any position on.

Perhaps I am just not being clear.



In this case, once you have answered the question, "is it wise?" you have already answered the question "should it be mandatory?"  No further inquiry is required to answer that question, thus we may say that they are the same question.



In this case, answering the question "is it wise?" is probative but not redundant of the question "should it be mandatory?"  Additional arguments are required to make the case that any specific wise thing should or should not be mandatory.

I hope that helps clarify the issue.
A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by turning the power off and on.
Knight, seeing what the student was doing, spoke sternly: “You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong.”
Knight turned the machine off and on.
The machine worked.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5799
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2015, 02:34:08 AM »
Every soup ladled to the hungry, every blanket draped over the cold signifies, in the final sense, a theft from my gigantic paycheck.

Offline Johnny Slick

  • "Goddammit, Slick."
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11990
  • Fake Ass Skeptic
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2015, 03:05:22 AM »
Nice graphs, H. Ross Perwrong, but it doesn't change things. Even in a deductive sense this argument is wrong because it ignores the other variables and in fact begins with a faulty premise. In fact, nobody is saying that "all things that are wise ought to be mandatory"; what people are saying is that the group of people who think that vaccines are wise but should not be mandatory (or made essentially mandatory in the sense of giving people "the choice" to cut themselves off from many aspects of the welfare state while still being forced to pay into it) is so small as to be statistically insignificant. I could put together a graph about this I guess, but it would be stupid and would waste everybody's time, so instead here is a jpeg of a kitten that I found:



The point here is not this bullshit that all things that are wise ought to be mandatory, it's that *in the specific instance of vaccines*, what makes them wise also makes them a thing that ought to be mandatory. I would have assumed going into this thread that you already knew these things but since I appear to be speaking to someone with the logical capacity of a 4th grader I will spell this out: in order for vaccines to work properly - that means making the big bad disease they try to prevent go away - a factor that is known as herd immunity must be invoked. Not everybody in society is able to take vaccines. For example, it may shock you to know that even Obamacare does not and will not require infants fresh out of the womb to be vaccinated. In fact, a baby's first vaccinations generally come well after birth. Birth is when a mommy makes a baby come out of her privates. I will not post an image f this because this is called porn. There are other people who also cannot take vaccines, for example people who are very old who were not around when the vaccine first came out (many of them also have a limited lifespan), and other people, cancer patients for example, who have their immune systems compromised. An immune system - nah, that's going to take too long to explain; you're going to need to wikipedia that shit. What herd immunity is, is a state in which so many people are vaccinated against a particular disease, that disease can't find a foothold in the human population and as a result even the very young, the very old, and the immuno-compromised don't contract it.

So thanks to herd immunity, there are essentially 3 different groups of people on this subject:

1. People who think that vaccines are both wise and ought to be mandatory.
2. People who think that vaccines are unwise and of course shouldn't be mandatory because like autism and stuff.
3. People who have the brains of a bag of Doritos.

Doritos are a kind of corn chip sold in American convenience stores which do not generally contain brain matter. Now, you may argue that there is in fact a fourth group of people, people who think that herd immunity is a sham like 9/11. However, you will quickly see that these people are in fact a subset of group #3. Similarly, people who think that vaccines are a smart thing to do because of herd immunity but who don't think that you should actually, like, force people to do stuff they don't want to do might seem like their own group as well, but further reflection should also reveal that these people are holding an opinion that's in direct contradiction to itself and who therefore actually don't really think vaccinations are wise (so they're in group 2) or haven't put the 2.6 seconds of thought required to realize this contradiction (so they're in group 3). There are also those people who think that viruses should rule and humans should drool. I would argue that this group is also not statistically significant but am willing to be convinced by a good study or helpful picture of concentric circles.

In closing, here is a picture of a puppy that thinks vaccines are wise BECAUSE they cause autism, which technically places him into group 1.

Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline starnado

  • the once and future king of tl;dr
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1411
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2015, 03:09:44 PM »
'The little, stupid differences are nothing next to the big, stupid similarities'
Bart Simpson

Offline teethering

  • 37% better than Slick
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 10907
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2015, 05:54:30 PM »
I found Slick's first graph convincing.  The second graph... not so much.

Offline Johnny Slick

  • "Goddammit, Slick."
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11990
  • Fake Ass Skeptic
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2015, 05:59:29 PM »
Doggist. ::)
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5799
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2015, 12:35:12 PM »
Came across some nice graphics:



Every soup ladled to the hungry, every blanket draped over the cold signifies, in the final sense, a theft from my gigantic paycheck.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5799
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2015, 05:53:18 PM »
One Art:

Every soup ladled to the hungry, every blanket draped over the cold signifies, in the final sense, a theft from my gigantic paycheck.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5799
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2015, 08:47:24 PM »
Nanoinjector action shots:







 :science:
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 08:53:39 PM by J. Eastgate »
Every soup ladled to the hungry, every blanket draped over the cold signifies, in the final sense, a theft from my gigantic paycheck.

Offline Plastiq

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2137
Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2015, 01:22:23 PM »
That's fucking cool.

 

personate-rain