Author Topic: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got  (Read 72290 times)

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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #735 on: April 01, 2019, 03:49:51 PM »


https://world.greekreporter.com/2019/03/18/egyptian-shipwreck-proves-greek-historian-herodotus-right-after-2500-years/


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Egyptian Shipwreck Proves Greek Historian Herodotus Right — After 2,500 Years
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline TheMatrixDNA

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #736 on: April 03, 2019, 12:21:40 AM »
I have asking me why and how humans domesticated wolves. Living in Amazon jungle for 7 years and observing things there I concluded that all social systems that humans has created till now ( be it communism, monarchy, feudalism, capitalism, etc.) are just copies of the jungle division of power among animals. So, the first humans with preys as cows noticed that wolves were doing a good job for them. Like the lions permits the existence of wolves surrounding their territories because wolves help to keep the order in his reign, the cows doesn't escape due fear of the wolves, etc. The wolves were the first security, the foreman... the first middle class...

So, the first humans did it because the inherited instincts from non-rational animals  were being transformed into human intelligence...


Am I wrong? Why?   

Offline Noisy Rhysling

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #737 on: April 03, 2019, 07:03:42 AM »
More likely, "puppies are cute" was the motivator. Hunter kills Mom, takes one or pups home to the kids. Second place would be wolves scavenging and becoming accustomed to being around humans to the point when the two species were willing to be in proximity.

And always remember "a dog is a wolf with the interesting parts bred out of it."
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Online Billzbub

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #738 on: April 03, 2019, 12:50:57 PM »
More likely, "puppies are cute" was the motivator. Hunter kills Mom, takes one or pups home to the kids. Second place would be wolves scavenging and becoming accustomed to being around humans to the point when the two species were willing to be in proximity.

And always remember "a dog is a wolf with the interesting parts bred out of it."

That's an answer to the first question about why we domesticated them.  But I think the rest of the post is asking what we think about the idea that our social structures are based on the social structures already present in nature but with some human intelligence applied.  The way it was worded seems to imply a lot of anthropomorphism, but I don't think it was intended that way.  Animals have an evolved nature that causes their social structures, and so do we.  How similar are our social structures to animal ones?

I'm happy to restate the question, but I have no answers.  This might be best in a thread of its own.
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Offline Noisy Rhysling

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #739 on: April 03, 2019, 01:22:08 PM »
I think our most basic social structures are very similar to the more intelligent animals. We certainly share traits with the great apes.
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #740 on: April 03, 2019, 01:26:27 PM »
I'd question division of 'animal instinct' from 'human intelligence'

We're primates doing generic primate stuff except with:
  • A greater facility for language
  • A greater facility for tool-use
  • A greater facility for abstract thought
  • Fabulous primary and secondary sexual characteristics
I only ever took Intro to Sociology and have never touched anything about the study of systems but I expect you could define basic elements of human behavior and social structures, show how you can get complex behavior/systems out of those simple basal elements and then also identify those same elements all throughout nature and just in systems in general.

Like, evolution is a general systems thing.  It's filtered variation.  Any system subject to (1) self-replication forward through time and (2) variation will display evolutionary change/behavior.  This applies to human bodies, bread recipes, tire designs and pigeon behavior all the same.  It's a general 'systems' thing. 

I expect a great deal of what we think of as 'human' 100% generalizes to all kinds of broader/shared contexts
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #741 on: April 03, 2019, 04:50:54 PM »
Social structures are just like any other evolutionary process. Some social structures increase the probability of survival and reproduction and others don't. It shouldn't be surprising that similar social structures are seen across species, because those species that develop those social structures have survival advantages.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #742 on: April 03, 2019, 06:31:12 PM »


You know, in an attempt to find images in the image thread? /passiveaggressiveness
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Offline werecow

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #743 on: April 03, 2019, 07:06:59 PM »
More likely, "puppies are cute" was the motivator. Hunter kills Mom, takes one or pups home to the kids. Second place would be wolves scavenging and becoming accustomed to being around humans to the point when the two species were willing to be in proximity.

And always remember "a dog is a wolf with the interesting parts bred out of it."

I think there's more to it than that though. For one thing, wolves have a social structure that is much more similar to the way humans typically organize than most other animals, we both hunt and scavenge in similar ways (with a high degree of social organization and persistence hunting), we're both omnivorous to some extent, and wolves are relatively intelligent. There's a lot of recognition between our species, and we occupy overlapping ecological niches, so we're either competing or we cooperate - an opportunity which not every species can recognize, but both of our species can, because we both have the social structure and observational intelligence needed to do so. And we're both opportunistic and we both bond strongly with our immediate social group. If cuteness were the only factor, I'm guessing small, timid, non-threatening social prey animals like rabbits would've been a much more likely candidate for early domestication.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 07:56:57 PM by werecow »
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Offline werecow

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #744 on: April 03, 2019, 07:11:21 PM »
Social structures are just like any other evolutionary process.
They are and they aren't. They differ in that they're the product of brains communicating, and thus subject to memetic evolution, not just genetic evolution. That means that what is advantageous to the meme may survive at the expense of the genetic fitness of the individual.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #745 on: April 03, 2019, 07:21:57 PM »
Social structures are just like any other evolutionary process.
They are and they aren't. They differ in that they're the product of brains communicating, and thus subject to memetic evolution, not just genetic evolution. That means that what is advantageous to the meme may survive at the expense of the genetic fitness of the individual.

Genetics, in this case, can be indirectly involved. Genetics may provide the underlying tendency for social interaction, but does not dictate the how that will occur.

Animal groups that adopt the advantageous methods of social interaction gain a survival advantage over groups of other animals (perhaps of the same species and genetic makeup) that, for whatever reason, don't adopt the advantageous methods, or less advantageous methods.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline werecow

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #746 on: April 03, 2019, 07:44:59 PM »
Social structures are just like any other evolutionary process.
They are and they aren't. They differ in that they're the product of brains communicating, and thus subject to memetic evolution, not just genetic evolution. That means that what is advantageous to the meme may survive at the expense of the genetic fitness of the individual.

Genetics, in this case, can be indirectly involved. Genetics may provide the underlying tendency for social interaction, but does not dictate the how that will occur.

It can but it doesn't have to. For example, becoming celibate reduces your fitness to zero, and I've yet to hear of any genetic basis for that choice. Yet some people choose that lifestyle because of their social organization. And as long as there are any viable hosts, these ideas can "survive and procreate" at the expense of the genetic fitness of the individual.
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Offline Noisy Rhysling

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #747 on: April 03, 2019, 07:45:46 PM »
Humans did, I think, breed for puppies that were plyable.
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Offline werecow

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #748 on: April 03, 2019, 07:55:45 PM »
Yeah, but I'm guessing the two species approached each other gradually at first, and the breeding probably came later.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Post The Science-and-Skepticism-i-est Images You've Got
« Reply #749 on: April 03, 2019, 07:57:02 PM »
Humans did, I think, breed for puppies that were plyable.

Maybe unintentionally. Any dog (wolf) thought to be dangerous or not cute would have been killed or driven off, the ones the kids like would have been spared.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

I'm not a doctor, I'm just someone who has done a ton of research into diet and nutrition.