Author Topic: European Court of Human Rights reaffirms that Amanda Knox's rights were violated  (Read 2799 times)

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Offline Rabbit

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Re: Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Acquitted
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2015, 08:35:39 AM »
short answer please:

Is she innocent because of reasonable doubt or was there some kind of alibi or other suspect involved?  I'm looking for short answers with no value judgements here.

We won't know for about 3 months when the court gives it's reasons.

Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Acquitted
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2016, 08:29:02 PM »
When the motivation report came out and translated, it was written in a manner which was garbled and worked to confuse anyone who reads it.

I only posted though to note the Italian police were trying to convict her on slander when she said that they hit her. Seems to have been an effort of face saving because everybody with four brain cells knows that the police hit her.

Well, she has been acquitted.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/amanda-knox-to-be-tried-for-slander-by-italian-court-10311677.html
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Offline SnarlPatrick

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Re: Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Acquitted
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2016, 01:06:28 PM »
Well, as someone who doesn't watch tv, I haven't been inundated with media about this. Based DF's summary, it sounds like the right verdict. She's lucky she isn't in the US court system. Just finished watching Making a Murderera d finally catching up on Serial, most of the way through...
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Acquitted
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2016, 01:10:34 PM »
Well, as someone who doesn't watch tv, I haven't been inundated with media about this. Based DF's summary, it sounds like the right verdict. She's lucky she isn't in the US court system. Just finished watching Making a Murderera d finally catching up on Serial, most of the way through...

Dues to certain peculiarities of the case, I don't think she would have been found guilty in the United States but there have been similarly bad court cases. . . .For example, the Norfolk Four.

Even when it goes wrong, there is a logic generally to the US legal system. Looking at other Italian cases, it is something like the lottery if you are found guilty or innocent. There is a recent case where both the defense and prosecution wanted a previous cases put aside but their supreme court still confirmed it.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 01:12:50 PM by Desert Fox »
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: ECHR accepts case against Italy over Amanda Knox trial
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2016, 05:33:44 AM »
It looks like the ECHR is going to take up her case against Italy on the remaining charge
http://www.ansa.it/english/news/general_news/2016/05/17/strasbourg-accuses-italy-over-knox-trial-3_7db61304-0648-4cee-a006-c5a85bcbf39d.html

Strasbourg, May 17 - The European Court of Human Rights on Tuesday accepted an appeal against Italy presented by Amanda Knox, the American woman acquitted by the Cassation Court of having a part in the murder of Meredith Kercher in Perugia. In the appeal, Knox says she was subjected to an unfair trial and was maltreated during questioning. The court judged Knox's dossier to be valid and told the Italian government of its decision so that it can defend itself

This one is longer with more details
http://www.groundreport.com/european-court-human-rights-begins-investigation-process-preceding-consideration-amanda-knox-criminal-slander-appeal/

Edit: Wanted to add that one has to be careful in that a lot of articles report her being slapped as a major part of her case but it is depriving her of her lawyer and have a non neutral translator.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 07:01:47 AM by Desert Fox »
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Offline InsanePat

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Re: ECHR accepts case against Italy over Amanda Knox trial
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 06:35:48 AM »
I'm listening to an old 2007 episode with a subject about a study saying there was 17% error in jury decisions in the US, most often against the defendant. I' still have to understand how one can compute such things, though...

Offline Desert Fox

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Re: ECHR accepts case against Italy over Amanda Knox trial
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2016, 06:45:29 AM »
I'm listening to an old 2007 episode with a subject about a study saying there was 17% error in jury decisions in the US, most often against the defendant. I' still have to understand how one can compute such things, though...

I know that the skeptical juror believes that up to 15% of inmates in prison are innocent.
I believe that there are some other groups whoi argue that as well based on various methods of examining cases.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Offline fonebone

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Re: ECHR accepts case against Italy over Amanda Knox trial
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2016, 09:33:27 AM »
I'm listening to an old 2007 episode with a subject about a study saying there was 17% error in jury decisions in the US, most often against the defendant. I' still have to understand how one can compute such things, though...

I know that the skeptical juror believes that up to 15% of inmates in prison are innocent.
I believe that there are some other groups whoi argue that as well based on various methods of examining cases.

Does he believe they are actually innocent or that they should not have been found guilty because of issues with how the trials were conducted?

I found this an interesting quote from the article Johnny posted. "“In the end,” he said, the verdict showed that the system “protects the rights of defendants more than other systems.”"  Yeah.  It only took you 10 years.  I guess every citizen should be willing to give up 10 years of their lives for another nations law system to feel like its done a bang up job!  I agree the US system is a clusterfuck, but man, the Italian system, at least from an outsiders perspective, seems like an absolute nightmare.


Offline Desert Fox

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Re: ECHR accepts case against Italy over Amanda Knox trial
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2016, 09:40:35 AM »
I'm listening to an old 2007 episode with a subject about a study saying there was 17% error in jury decisions in the US, most often against the defendant. I' still have to understand how one can compute such things, though...

I know that the skeptical juror believes that up to 15% of inmates in prison are innocent.
I believe that there are some other groups whoi argue that as well based on various methods of examining cases.

Does he believe they are actually innocent or that they should not have been found guilty because of issues with how the trials were conducted?

I found this an interesting quote from the article Johnny posted. "“In the end,” he said, the verdict showed that the system “protects the rights of defendants more than other systems.”"  Yeah.  It only took you 10 years.  I guess every citizen should be willing to give up 10 years of their lives for another nations law system to feel like its done a bang up job!  I agree the US system is a clusterfuck, but man, the Italian system, at least from an outsiders perspective, seems like an absolute nightmare.

Some of the people convicted may be pretty nasty individuals but they are not guilty of the crimes which they were convicted of.
I would argue that a truly innocent defendant has huge problems with the legal system because they often trust the legal system and police.

Do not talk to the police
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Offline InsanePat

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Re: ECHR accepts case against Italy over Amanda Knox trial
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2016, 04:12:07 AM »
The italian system seems close enough to the french system, so i think i understand it mostly, so...
- the usual process is first instance, then appeal if the verdict is contested.
- Then there can be a cassation court appeal, if one side want to argue about something not being properly done in the appeal court (procedure, law, constitutionality respect). It can "break" the appeal decision, usually making the process go back to an appeal court for a final trial, or confirm the verdict, and case closed.
Then there is a possibility of appeal to the european court  of human rights if someone believes his basic rights have not been respected.

In that  case, Amanda Knox has been found guilty in first instance, appealed, was found innocent in appeal, i guess the accusation appealed to the cassation court, but the appeal was confirmed and definitive.
Amanda Knox seems to have asked the ECHR to statute not about the decision but about the first trial where she claims not to have had been fairly and humanly treated. So far, it has accepted the case, meaning it has been considered solid enough to be judged... but that will not be soon, so sorry, we will hear about that sometime again...

Offline Desert Fox

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Re: ECHR accepts case against Italy over Amanda Knox trial
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2016, 06:31:43 AM »
Somebody read in a paper (which unfortunately is paywalled) that Italy has to respond by September. 
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Offline Desert Fox

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A side note on her is that I have been listening to a podcast hosted by her called "The Truth about True Crime" and while I don't know if she labels herself as a skeptic, her thought process really seems to be that of a skeptic.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/european-court-human-rights-reaffirms-amanda-knoxs-rights/story?id=63930441

Quote
European Court of Human Rights reaffirms that Amanda Knox's rights were violated

 The court had ruled this January that Italy had to pay approximately $20,000 in damages and legal costs to Knox for failing to provide her with a lawyer or proper translator during hours of police questioning on Nov. 6, 2007, during the initial stages of the investigation into Kercher's murder in Perugia, Italy.

On Monday, a panel of judges at the human rights court reviewed the January ruling and rejected a request from the Italian state that the case be referred to a grand jury to be re-examined.

In rejecting the request, the court made the ruling final, and the Italian state will have to pay Knox damages. The judgment will be transmitted to the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, which supervises the enforcement of European Court judgments. This should end Knox's legal proceedings in Italy.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Offline daniel1948

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I'm listening to an old 2007 episode with a subject about a study saying there was 17% error in jury decisions in the US, most often against the defendant. I' still have to understand how one can compute such things, though...

I know that the skeptical juror believes that up to 15% of inmates in prison are innocent.
I believe that there are some other groups whoi argue that as well based on various methods of examining cases.

Does he believe they are actually innocent or that they should not have been found guilty because of issues with how the trials were conducted?

My own experience leads me to think the number is probably higher than 17%. There are several categories:

1. People who actually did not commit the crime they were accused of;
2. People who were enticed by an undercover cop into the "crime" of directing the cop to a drug dealer after the cop claimed to be an addict and begged and pleaded for help;
3. People who actually committed a crime but were targeted only because they were poor, where rich people are ignored;
4. People who may or may not have actually committed the crime but would have gone free had they had a private lawyer instead of an over-worked public defender;
5. People awaiting trial in jail because they cannot afford bail.

#1 could be 17%. I could believe that.

#2 is actually against the law, but should not be. The person is not selling drugs or profiting from the drug trade, but merely taking pity on someone he thinks is suffering.

#3 happens a lot with drugs. The cops do not bust down doors in Beverly Hills looking for a joint.

#4 are not innocent people, but show that being guilty of a crime is not really why they are in jail: They are in jail because they are poor. Our court system does not really care if you are guilty. It only cares if you are guilty and poor. And it cares much more if you are poor than if you are guilty, because being poor is often enough to get you convicted.

In the case of #5, I have personally known two men who, after 6 months in jail awaiting trial for non-violent crimes, pled guilty, hoping to be sentenced to time served. In both cases, their right to a speedy trial was denied because their public defenders were so overworked that they had to ask the court for postponements. In both cases they were actually guilty of the crimes, but in both cases were denied their right to a trial. One had taken his sister's car for a joyride, the other had burglarized the refrigerator at a fire station. But there are many others, some of whom will turn out to be innocent, and some will be acquitted, languishing in jails because they cannot pay bail.

I'm willing to believe that Italy is worse. What little I know of Italy makes it easy to believe that everything is worse there, except maybe the food. But our system is so utterly and completely broken that a coin toss would be more fair than our court system.
Daniel
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Offline Desert Fox

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On #5, I know of plenty of cases where somebody is innocent but will choose to plead in order to get out of prison / jail.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Offline daniel1948

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On #5, I know of plenty of cases where somebody is innocent but will choose to plead in order to get out of prison / jail.

Yep. Or in hopes of getting a shorter prison sentence because they know that even though they're innocent, in court they'll be fucked because they cannot afford a good lawyer, or because of racism in the system. And the prosecutor threatens them with a more serious charge if they plead guilty. You pretty much always get a reduction in the charges if you plead guilty.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 10:51:18 AM by daniel1948 »
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

 

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