Author Topic: Skeptoid  (Read 20461 times)

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Offline mindme

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2015, 02:21:12 PM »
Lots of white people on sex offender registries that can never pay off their debt to society either.
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Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2015, 02:39:30 PM »
Lots of white people on sex offender registries that can never pay off their debt to society either.

Yeah, that is bad, too.

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2015, 04:57:45 PM »
That's a pretty minimalist way of describing perpetrating and on going fraud. It's not like ops, he took the wrong exit off a highway or forgot to pay for something at the bottom of his cart. He demonstrated a complete lack of integrity and honesty two traits vital to a public skeptical figure. I really don't understand how anyone, epeacilly in the skeptically community can give him a pass or say it was a simple mistake. He is a convicted fraudster who stole millions and not only lied about it, but employed his family with his ill gotten gains. That is ethically gross and not to be so lightly glossed over.

You certainly killed that straw man dead dead dead.

No one is saying he should get a pass.  What they are saying is that he has served his debt to society.  It's almost like the christian idea of hell.  Forever damned, no redemption.

Funny how white people get to pay their debt to society by by going to jail but people of colour get to keeping paying it by not being allow to vote or get a job or walk down the street without getting shot by a cop.

If you find that funny, you're a horrible person.

Here, let me post something that is just as relevant to the thread:

"In 1884,  meridian time personnel met
 in Washington to change Earth time.
First words said was that only 1 day
could be used on Earth to not change
 the 1 day bible. So they applied the 1
day  and  ignored  the  other  3 days.
The bible time was wrong then and it
 proved wrong today. This a major lie
  has so much evil feed from it's wrong.
No man on Earth has no belly-button,
  it proves every believer on Earth a liar."

#notarealskeptic

Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2015, 05:06:26 PM »
I think he's exactly the kind of person who would do exactly that. :D

I've met him, actually. He's a nice guy. A guy who made a mistake quite a few years ago that happened to be illegal. When he gets out he will have paid his debt to society.
This is a charitable sentiment, and you may not be wrong. We won't know until enough time passes that he hasn't continued fraudulent behavior, or until he does it again. We certainly would be right to think a lot (most?) fraudsters get released and go on to other fraudulent activities. Certainly the big ones the skeptical community picks on never learn, or if they do learn anything, they learn how to better navigate the authorities and the rules to continue.

I think seeing how a lot of the big guys like Popoff and Trudeau continue on the skeptical community has the right to be skeptical of Dunning, for a time at least.
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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2015, 05:29:27 PM »
I think he's exactly the kind of person who would do exactly that. :D

I've met him, actually. He's a nice guy. A guy who made a mistake quite a few years ago that happened to be illegal. When he gets out he will have paid his debt to society.
This is a charitable sentiment, and you may not be wrong. We won't know until enough time passes that he hasn't continued fraudulent behavior, or until he does it again. We certainly would be right to think a lot (most?) fraudsters get released and go on to other fraudulent activities. Certainly the big ones the skeptical community picks on never learn, or if they do learn anything, they learn how to better navigate the authorities and the rules to continue.

I think seeing how a lot of the big guys like Popoff and Trudeau continue on the skeptical community has the right to be skeptical of Dunning, for a time at least.

One major difference though--Trudeau and Popoff continued on doing the things for which they got busted (both legally and skeptically), scams that were publicly debunked. It's a testament to their gall, and humanity's gullibility. 

Dunning's crime reflects upon his character, but whether or not he's a jerk doesn't affect the skeptical content he puts out (though it may understandably put people off).
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2015, 06:44:16 PM »
I think he's exactly the kind of person who would do exactly that. :D

I've met him, actually. He's a nice guy. A guy who made a mistake quite a few years ago that happened to be illegal. When he gets out he will have paid his debt to society.
This is a charitable sentiment, and you may not be wrong. We won't know until enough time passes that he hasn't continued fraudulent behavior, or until he does it again. We certainly would be right to think a lot (most?) fraudsters get released and go on to other fraudulent activities. Certainly the big ones the skeptical community picks on never learn, or if they do learn anything, they learn how to better navigate the authorities and the rules to continue.

I think seeing how a lot of the big guys like Popoff and Trudeau continue on the skeptical community has the right to be skeptical of Dunning, for a time at least.

One major difference though--Trudeau and Popoff continued on doing the things for which they got busted (both legally and skeptically), scams that were publicly debunked. It's a testament to their gall, and humanity's gullibility. 

Dunning's crime reflects upon his character, but whether or not he's a jerk doesn't affect the skeptical content he puts out (though it may understandably put people off).
I wasn't speaking at all to the validity of his skeptical podcast, just on whether or not he has paid a debt to society and his character should be let off the hook for "making a mistake."
Knowledge is power. France is bacon.

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2015, 06:59:55 PM »
He was charged on one count of wire fraud. One, which occurred almost ten years ago. There was nothing "ongoing" - or at least he wasn't charged with that and there is no evidence of it.

If you think his crime was in any way comparable to those of Popoff and Trudeau, then you really need a perspective check.

Online Harry Black

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2015, 07:14:34 PM »
I think there are those who have let it go and those who are unlikely to.
What interests me is how his work will fare from now on in terms of really achieving anything more than a quick 10min distraction for the converted. Will he add any value to the community in terms of drawing new members? Or find a way to change direction and make himself less dispensible?

Offline Belgarath

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2015, 07:24:52 PM »
I think there are those who have let it go and those who are unlikely to.
What interests me is how his work will fare from now on in terms of really achieving anything more than a quick 10min distraction for the converted. Will he add any value to the community in terms of drawing new members? Or find a way to change direction and make himself less dispensible?

So a criteria of being a skeptic is to draw new members?

I suggest a lot of people on this board leave the skeptic movement then.
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Offline Caffiene

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2015, 08:24:55 PM »
So a criteria of being a skeptic is to draw new members?

I suggest a lot of people on this board leave the skeptic movement then.

You certainly killed that straw man dead dead dead.

Harry was very clear that he was talking specifically about being interested in how the work will fare, not about prescribing criteria to be a skeptic.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2015, 09:04:08 PM »
So a criteria of being a skeptic is to draw new members?

I suggest a lot of people on this board leave the skeptic movement then.

You certainly killed that straw man dead dead dead.

Harry was very clear that he was talking specifically about being interested in how the work will fare, not about prescribing criteria to be a skeptic.

Yes, but he implied that unless it drew in new members, it was valueless.

Offline Caffiene

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2015, 09:20:31 PM »
Yes, but he implied that unless it drew in new members, it was valueless.

Still not seeing the connection to "criteria of being a skeptic".
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2015, 09:24:50 PM »
Yes, but he implied that unless it drew in new members, it was valueless.

Still not seeing the connection to "criteria of being a skeptic".

I agree, it probably would have been better if he had asked if a criterion of being a useful skeptical podcast was to draw in new members, but you know, shortcuts and stuff.

Online Harry Black

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2015, 10:27:13 PM »
Jeez. I duno. I will still probably listen now and then. But its likely to have less impact given the controversy no?
I mean its fine for it to exist as just a nice distraction and short cut for people who are already skeptical and/or dont judge his work by his past. But I feel like prior to this whole thing, he might have been achieving a bit more and it was a handy resource to point people to.
Whether people are right or wrong to not want anything to do with Dunning now, it doesnt change the actual outcome that many dont and it may change the role or impact of his work.

Offline Kwisatz Haderach

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Re: Skeptoid
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2015, 02:38:15 AM »
I think there are several different issues here that people are conflating?

1) Does Dunning's conviction affect the accuracy of Skeptoid?
2) Does Dunning's conviction affect the credibility of Skeptoid?
3) Does Dunning's conviction affect his ability to be a leader within the skeptical movement?
4) Does Dunning's conviction affect his ability to reach out to those outside the skeptical movement?
5) Does Dunning's conviction affect his ability to be a good skeptic?

My short answers to those questions are:

1) No
2) Maybe a Little
3) Maybe a Little
4) Probably
5) Not at all

I also think that because their have been several controversies involving Dunning's ability to listen to legitimate criticism and learn from his mistakes in the past, some people might see his fraud conviction as part of a pattern of anti-social behaviour which reflects poorly of the skeptical movement and is generally off-putting.

While I have been a harsh critic of Dunning in the past, I think that I have heard a genuine change in his attitude during the last few episodes the he recorded himself, and I am willing to give Skeptoid the benefit of the doubt when he returns -- based on his actions, not because of some abstract ethic of him having "paid his debt to society" which, as I have pointed out earlier, is bullshit (and is also completely relevant to this conversation even though it seems to make some people uncomfortable).

 

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