Author Topic: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions  (Read 19431 times)

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Offline brilligtove

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MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« on: May 14, 2015, 03:27:12 PM »
There are strengths and flaws to the way Marvel and DC are working their TV and movie properties, within episodes, within series, and across their shared universes. Threads for the individual shows and movies are a fine place to talk about the stuff within; here's where we can discuss the stuff between.

Marvel

Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU)
Marvel's universe is fragmented, with X-Men, Spiderman and the Fantastic Four each in their own universe, separate from the main Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU). The MCU includes many characters and franchises, including:
- Iron Man
- Thor
- The Hulk
- The Avengers
- Guardians of the Galaxy
- Ant Man
- Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
- Daredevil
- Jessica Jones
- Luke Cage
- Iron Fist
- The Defenders
- Doctor Strange
...and more to come.

The rights to Spider-Man have been adjusted so that he will be entering the MCU at some point.

The MCU is integrated across big screen and small, with pretty reasonable continuity and a centuries-long story arc wrapped around the Infinity Stones.

Discontinuities of Note
  • Adamantium - the superstrongestmetalever - is restricted to the XMEN universe. This means that vibranium takes the place of adamantium in the MCU.
  • The concept of Mutants is restricted to the XMEN universe, so the Inhumans take the place of Mutants in the MCU.
  • Quicksilver appears in both the XMEN Universe and MCU. He's better in XMEN.
Marvel's X-Men Universe (XMEN)
Fox owns the X-Men movie rights. This keeps them in a separate universe from the MCU, with a few strange crossovers (Quicksilver appears in both). The movies in the X-Men franchise are mostly internally consistent, but there's been time travel and such, so there's no guarantees. In particular, Deadpool is part of that universe and not the MCU, but will be a very different character than we were introduced to in X-Men Origins: Wolverine. Which is a very good thing. Still played by Ryan Reynolds, which is also (IMHO) a good thing.

DC Extended Universe (DCEU)
DC has fragmented their TV properties and set them in several separate continuities from their movies. On TV, four properties are part of the Arrowverse: Arrow, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, and Constantine. Supergirl does not appear to overlap with the Arrowverse, but may be part of the Flashverse with it's many alternate Earths (I made that term up). Superman and Metropolis do not appear in the Arrowverse.

Man of Steel was the first movie in the shared DCEU. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice will build on that foundation. Apparently there will be about a dozen more movies out past 2020 (noted below), but they have nothing to do with past movies or the TV properties.

The Arrowverse (Arrowverse)

With four TV shows set in the same universe, DC has decided to use ideas from the Flashpoint storyline to create a multiverse, with many Earths for heroes and villains to exist within - and hop between. Between this and time travel (introduced in a big way in Legends of Tomorrow) the 'continuity' of the DCEU really doesn't matter. There are lots of crossover episodes each season, tying the characters and events together, which is fun, but don't expect to have anything make sense. Just enjoy.

All The Shows
The table below has all the existing and coming properties for the four universes noted above, with linked threads where they exist. We also have a Comic book movies and shows: rate, recommend, discuss, get your fanboy/girl thread. (Table source is sheet2, red cell at the bottom right.)

See the latest listing in its own post.



* Most of this movie takes place long before anything except the Thor intros.

** Agent Carter, like CA:TFA is pre-most everything else.

*** It is not clear exactly when Daredevil fits in the MCU continuity; headlines indicate it is late 2014, perhaps running up to the calendar day it was released - but it could be as late as September 2015.

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« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 10:30:31 AM by brilligtove »
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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2015, 03:39:51 PM »
I think DC's strength has really been in their animated properties where they consistently put out top tier material and Marvel has been more hit or miss and much less pervasive in that arena. 

On live action TV, I think Marvel has the edge and are poised to push past DC with the remaining Netflix properties and the potential Agents of SHIELD spin off, though the Legends of Tomorrow has some serious potential to do even better. 

The movies clearly belong to Marvel at this point, but DC has yet to prove itself on its new direction, although Man of Steel doesn't fill me with confidence as the tone just didn't fit the property and I'm getting tired of overly gritty and stoic.

Overall, I'd say Marvel is doing better but DC is also just getting started so we'll see.

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2015, 03:53:36 PM »
I think DC's strength has really been in their animated properties where they consistently put out top tier material and Marvel has been more hit or miss and much less pervasive in that arena. 

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2015, 03:58:45 PM »
I think DC's strength has really been in their animated properties where they consistently put out top tier material and Marvel has been more hit or miss and much less pervasive in that arena. 

I would agree if it weren't for "Justice League: War" and "Justice League: Throne of Atlantis". Those were BAD bad movies.
New 52 ruined the DCAU completely.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2015, 04:41:15 PM »
Good points about the DCAU - but I'm not going to try to chronicle THAT behemoth!

I have been watching a chrono-edit of the MCU (no TV, no AOU) that starts with Thor intros (since they're from thousands and thousands of years ago, then CA:TWS, then GOTG intro, then... It's neat to see. There are long stretches where it's just one movie - CA:TFA for example, is almost complete (no intro / outro). We're in the second 'reel' now, with a lot of interlaced Hulk & Iron Man(s) so far.

I liked Man of Steel quite a bit, in part because it tried to take a 'this is real' approach to a being with Superman-level power. That impressed me about the MCU too - that they could actually break NY or London and show the kinds of consequences that that kind of destructive power would have. With MoS in a full on deathmatch with other Krytonians there would have to be massive death and destruction. I hope that the DCSU finds ways to lighten up a bit before JL1, though. Flash and Green Lantern were always cocky and funny (to me) and could do with a lighter touch.
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2015, 05:26:26 PM »
Just watched the DCTVU:LOT trailer.

Why do comics just HAVE to do time travel? The writing on Flash is so bad that I don't really care, but time banditry flusterclucks all continuity and sense of danger.

 :rant:
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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2015, 08:43:58 AM »
This timeline of the MCU is quite interesting and well done.

http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/5395/A-Marvel-Cinematic-Universe-Timeline/

It seems to be pretty processor heavy, so mobile devices may not be able to handle it.
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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2015, 04:31:32 AM »
Comicbook stories and continuities are so out there that they dont really work without timetravel/alternate universes. Bad writing? Sure, but as demanded by the fans. As a group we get the industry we deserve. Also when characters run for 40+ years when they would really have a max window of 15 for their adventures...revision and reinvention is necessary.
Great point about New 52 killing the DCAU add to the list Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin. Awful films based on awful comics. DC seems to be looking at comic sales as a story strength predictor but it really isnt.
Marvel is kicking all kinds of ass and I believe that having x-men and FF separate is for the best, those two properties have so much baggage with them that I often wish Marvel would do a few different comicbook universes. A world that idolises the Avengers is not likely to have a problem with mutants and the whole political angles and world threatening arcs that so seldom meet up between the two worlds really break the spell for me.
Though Deadpool belongs in every Marvel movie.
Im more of a DC fan in my heart but I really think they are going the wrong way.

Offline brilligtove

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2015, 11:30:18 PM »
Comicbook stories and continuities are so out there that they dont really work without timetravel/alternate universes. Bad writing? Sure, but as demanded by the fans. As a group we get the industry we deserve. Also when characters run for 40+ years when they would really have a max window of 15 for their adventures...revision and reinvention is necessary.

Great point about New 52 killing the DCAU add to the list Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin. Awful films based on awful comics. DC seems to be looking at comic sales as a story strength predictor but it really isnt.

Marvel is kicking all kinds of ass and I believe that having x-men and FF separate is for the best, those two properties have so much baggage with them that I often wish Marvel would do a few different comicbook universes. A world that idolises the Avengers is not likely to have a problem with mutants and the whole political angles and world threatening arcs that so seldom meet up between the two worlds really break the spell for me.

Though Deadpool belongs in every Marvel movie.

Im more of a DC fan in my heart but I really think they are going the wrong way.


I have no problems with retelling, reinventing, alternate universe[integer], alternate universe[real], alternate universe[imaginary], or alternate universe[complex]. I get itchy when time travel is required to unfukkerate the story.

You're CompletelyRight(TM) that "having x-men and FF separate is for the best" in any Marvel U. Marvel and DC would both do well to take advantage of walled-off alternate histories for heroes like this. The combinations are rarely sensible in any sense.
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Offline spawnstar

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2015, 12:17:37 AM »
Comicbook stories and continuities are so out there that they dont really work without timetravel/alternate universes. Bad writing? Sure, but as demanded by the fans. As a group we get the industry we deserve. Also when characters run for 40+ years when they would really have a max window of 15 for their adventures...revision and reinvention is necessary.

Great point about New 52 killing the DCAU add to the list Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin. Awful films based on awful comics. DC seems to be looking at comic sales as a story strength predictor but it really isnt.

Marvel is kicking all kinds of ass and I believe that having x-men and FF separate is for the best, those two properties have so much baggage with them that I often wish Marvel would do a few different comicbook universes. A world that idolises the Avengers is not likely to have a problem with mutants and the whole political angles and world threatening arcs that so seldom meet up between the two worlds really break the spell for me.

Though Deadpool belongs in every Marvel movie.

Im more of a DC fan in my heart but I really think they are going the wrong way.


I have no problems with retelling, reinventing, alternate universe[integer], alternate universe[real], alternate universe[imaginary], or alternate universe[complex]. I get itchy when time travel is required to unfukkerate the story.

You're CompletelyRight(TM) that "having x-men and FF separate is for the best" in any Marvel U. Marvel and DC would both do well to take advantage of walled-off alternate histories for heroes like this. The combinations are rarely sensible in any sense.

Are you reading x-men at the moment? The story is really interesting and hinges on time travel. The main problem with time travel is different writers use it differently. Some have it so changing the past effect the present and others that a new timeline is created.

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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2015, 01:07:13 AM »
Days of Future Past is one of my favorite comic books movies period.  Time travel is like any other story element; it can be done well and it can be done horribly.

It's worth noting though, that the season finale of Agents of SHIELD strongly suggests that:

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 05:43:54 AM »
I dont think the above is a spoiler at all but the inhumans fold really nicely into the marvel universe while having them exist alongside the x-men makes very little sense with the way the world views them and how they view the world.

Offline brilligtove

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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 12:13:56 PM »
Comicbook stories and continuities are so out there that they dont really work without timetravel/alternate universes. Bad writing? Sure, but as demanded by the fans. As a group we get the industry we deserve. Also when characters run for 40+ years when they would really have a max window of 15 for their adventures...revision and reinvention is necessary.

Great point about New 52 killing the DCAU add to the list Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin. Awful films based on awful comics. DC seems to be looking at comic sales as a story strength predictor but it really isnt.

Marvel is kicking all kinds of ass and I believe that having x-men and FF separate is for the best, those two properties have so much baggage with them that I often wish Marvel would do a few different comicbook universes. A world that idolises the Avengers is not likely to have a problem with mutants and the whole political angles and world threatening arcs that so seldom meet up between the two worlds really break the spell for me.

Though Deadpool belongs in every Marvel movie.

Im more of a DC fan in my heart but I really think they are going the wrong way.


I have no problems with retelling, reinventing, alternate universe[integer], alternate universe[real], alternate universe[imaginary], or alternate universe[complex]. I get itchy when time travel is required to unfukkerate the story.

You're CompletelyRight(TM) that "having x-men and FF separate is for the best" in any Marvel U. Marvel and DC would both do well to take advantage of walled-off alternate histories for heroes like this. The combinations are rarely sensible in any sense.

Are you reading x-men at the moment? The story is really interesting and hinges on time travel. The main problem with time travel is different writers use it differently. Some have it so changing the past effect the present and others that a new timeline is created.

(click to show/hide)

I have not been reading the comics. I kinda got tired of comics a decade or so ago. Too much stunt-gimmick-crazysoapoperatwist. While I pick up a book or two on occasion, I'm into other fiction (at least for now).
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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 12:19:58 PM »
I dont think the above is a spoiler at all but the inhumans fold really nicely into the marvel universe while having them exist alongside the x-men makes very little sense with the way the world views them and how they view the world.

My wife and I were talking about the way the Inhumans work in the MCU after watching the AOS finale. She says she wants simple good-guys-white-hats bad-guys-black-hats kind of conflicts, but that's not what she actually chooses to consume for entertainment. When I described Jiaying as "this world's Magneto" she got it right away.

I can't see how Marvel could integrate the other superhero teams into the MCU without completely unbalancing everything. I mean superhero epics are inherently unbalanced, but that would really eff the thing up.
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Re: MCU v DCTVU v DCSU - Metaverse Discussions
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 02:34:35 PM »
I dont think the above is a spoiler at all but the inhumans fold really nicely into the marvel universe while having them exist alongside the x-men makes very little sense with the way the world views them and how they view the world.

My wife and I were talking about the way the Inhumans work in the MCU after watching the AOS finale. She says she wants simple good-guys-white-hats bad-guys-black-hats kind of conflicts, but that's not what she actually chooses to consume for entertainment. When I described Jiaying as "this world's Magneto" she got it right away.

I can't see how Marvel could integrate the other superhero teams into the MCU without completely unbalancing everything. I mean superhero epics are inherently unbalanced, but that would really eff the thing up.

Fantastic Four I can see working, but the X-Men brings too much baggage to the universe to make sense in the universe they've created.  How can you have mutants all of a sudden be a thing that's been around for decades and have no one ever having mentioned it before?

 

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