Author Topic: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?  (Read 10129 times)

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Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2015, 04:51:07 PM »
What then is "deep" knowledge in religion?
There isn't any.  Or at least any more meaningful than the shallow tidbits.  Only the loud people (on either side) care about these things.

My mildly religious parents don't care about the nuts and bolts of transubstantiation or other trivia.  They care about hanging out at church sometimes, listening to music, feeling like they are grounding their moral sense in something, and that's about it.  I care more, and know substantially more, about the minutia of what Christians are supposed to believe than they do.  And even I don't really give that much of a shit about it - I just happen to hang out in places where people talk about these things a lot and obsess over every detail.
Big Mike
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2015, 05:10:51 PM »
What then is "deep" knowledge in religion?
There isn't any.  Or at least any more meaningful than the shallow tidbits.  Only the loud people (on either side) care about these things.

My mildly religious parents don't care about the nuts and bolts of transubstantiation or other trivia.  They care about hanging out at church sometimes, listening to music, feeling like they are grounding their moral sense in something, and that's about it.  I care more, and know substantially more, about the minutia of what Christians are supposed to believe than they do.  And even I don't really give that much of a shit about it - I just happen to hang out in places where people talk about these things a lot and obsess over every detail.

So the ideal is to be ignorant about religion, be proud of it, and also be an apologist for it?

I, and I suspect a lot of people here, care about if religion is true or not. If Jesus rose from the dead, or if Muhammad recieved divine revelations, that would be of interest to know.

Your antiintellectualism will not change that.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2015, 05:26:33 PM »
I also think it is important what bits are true (ie. practically none).

I just don't think that average religious folks not knowing all of the intricate details of either their own or other people's dogma/traditions is any kind of effective GOTCHA that would be useful to prove any kind of point to them.  That's where I've been going with this.  All the way back up to:

Seems to me a lot of skeptics who are also atheists don't actually understand deism. But a lot of them don't understand any kind of religion, so I guess that's par for the course.

Don't American surveys show atheists to be more knowledgeable about religion than religious people?

I don't think knowing which particular decisions about the Trinity were made for what reasons during Constantine's time is in any way demonstrating "understanding any kind of religion".  It is certainly demonstrating "knowledge about religion", but in no way explains the "why" of anything.
Big Mike
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2015, 05:42:02 PM »
Well, people who are exposed to knowledge of the different religions might be more inclined to be atheists.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2015, 05:49:50 PM »
Well, people who are exposed to knowledge of the different religions might be more inclined to be atheists.

This is definitely possible.
Big Mike
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Offline Sawyer

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2015, 06:10:05 PM »

So the ideal is to be ignorant about religion, be proud of it, and also be an apologist for it?

I, and I suspect a lot of people here, care about if religion is true or not. If Jesus rose from the dead, or if Muhammad recieved divine revelations, that would be of interest to know.

Your antiintellectualism will not change that.

I don't think amys was going in the same direction I was about this topic, but I'm also 100% sure that neither of us were employing, endorsing, or in any way celebrating "anti-intellectualism".  I'm still at a complete loss as to how we completely resolved the deist/scientist/skeptic divide, and I find it a little insulting that someone that wants to explore these issues in more depth is deemed as being against intellectualism.

The communication gap in this thread is growing wider by the minute so I'm already losing confidence that anything good will come out of it, but I'll try offering a topic that's been on my mind recently.  I'm currently reading The March of Folly by Barbara Tuchman, which discusses a sweeping range of historical topics where ruling institutions have acted against their own best interest.  One of the examples that is looked at is the Renaissance Popes, Sixtus IV - Clement VII.  There's a litany of sins (in both the literal religious sense and in the realm of leadership, finance, and public relations) that the various popes committed just before the Protestant Reformation.  These mistakes are worth learning about.  I know that despite the tremendous scholarship some atheists put into learning about religious history, there are many people within our community who would brush off these lessons completely with "Lol, the Catholic Church is garbage, end of story", or perhaps some jokes about alter boys.  Well I'm not satisfied with those kinds of responses.  I think it's worth looking into certain aspects of religious history and philosophy, even if we feel the big question about whether or not God exists has already been answered.  I often feel like people in the atheist camp are trying to derail these conversations before they even get started, which ironically is against our best interest.

I preemptively apologize for mischaracterizing anyone's position on learning about religious history.

Offline DaveTheReader

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2015, 09:13:46 AM »
Well, people who are exposed to knowledge of the different religions might be more inclined to be atheists.

This is definitely possible.

People who are exposed to history, specifically the history of the regions where these things got started will probably go or remain atheist. For example,  the Egyptian god Horus:
god who became man
Born of a virgin on December 25
celestial events to mark the occasion
At 12 years of age, wise beyond his years
started his ministry at age 30
performed miracles
raised the dead
slain by his enemies
rose from the dead after 3 days

Oh, that one was a myth, but my god really happened. Give me a break.

Your god is just one of many. The locals borrowed freely from the different gods. They changed the names and locations and you have a new god.

Get over it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:16:30 AM by DaveTheReader »

Offline DaveTheReader

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2015, 09:25:16 AM »
Well, people who are exposed to knowledge of the different religions might be more inclined to be atheists.

BTW. The god Quetzalcoatl has parallels to the Christian god Jesus, long before European contact. Best of all, eating the body and blood.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2015, 05:04:31 PM »
Well, people who are exposed to knowledge of the different religions might be more inclined to be atheists.

BTW. The god Quetzalcoatl has parallels to the Christian god Jesus, long before European contact. Best of all, eating the body and blood.

And is completely unrelated to Jesus anyways. :)
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Mr. Beagle

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2015, 05:28:03 PM »
Well, people who are exposed to knowledge of the different religions might be more inclined to be atheists.

BTW. The god Quetzalcoatl has parallels to the Christian god Jesus, long before European contact. Best of all, eating the body and blood.

And is completely unrelated to Jesus anyways. :)

The Mormons point to Quetzalcoatl as proof that Jesus came to the Americas.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2015, 02:59:27 PM »
Well, people who are exposed to knowledge of the different religions might be more inclined to be atheists.

BTW. The god Quetzalcoatl has parallels to the Christian god Jesus, long before European contact. Best of all, eating the body and blood.

And is completely unrelated to Jesus anyways. :)

The Mormons point to Quetzalcoatl as proof that Jesus came to the Americas.

I'm not sure how old worship of Quetzalcoatl is, or if he was always thought of the same way over time (probably not).
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2015, 03:01:07 PM »
And I still disagree with the earlier assertion that the books they recommend on their website are just a random collection of books they happen to like, no deeper thought behind it. I gather from various interviews that they are very brand-conscious.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline stonesean

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Re: Why does the SGU recommed The God Delusion and God Is Not Great?
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2015, 10:50:24 AM »
And I still disagree with the earlier assertion that the books they recommend on their website are just a random collection of books they happen to like, no deeper thought behind it. I gather from various interviews that they are very brand-conscious.

As is anyone with a brand who plans on keeping that brand around, I assume (hope).

But i'm not sure why that would be a concern of a consumer of their product.

I feel like you're trying to make some sort of nefarious claim without making some sort of nefarious claim.
Well.  There it is.

 

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