Author Topic: E3 2015  (Read 4279 times)

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Offline Sordid

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2015, 04:35:49 PM »
Isn't the whole point of procedural generation that it isn't random? The world should be the same for everyone.

Also, yes, yes, yes, all of my yes. All. Of. It.


Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2015, 04:59:57 PM »
Isn't the whole point of procedural generation that it isn't random? The world should be the same for everyone.

Oh, maybe I am confusing my terms then.  I am definitely shitting myself over JC3 as well.  That is going to be so sweet!

Offline Sordid

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2015, 05:14:08 PM »
I'm curious about the destructible terrain. Procedural generation is great for generating a static world, but once a player starts altering it, those changes have to be communicated to other players, otherwise they won't see them. I wonder how they're going to do that, if the game is going to require a constant connection to their servers.

Oh, there was also a trailer for Dark Souls 3, which I'm looking forward a lot. But it was just a CGI cinematic with no gameplay footage, so there's not a lot of point in linking it.

Offline teethering

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2015, 05:16:41 PM »
I am skeptical of No Man's Sky too, but the concept is just too alluring to me to not be excited.  I've wanted a sci-fi space game where you could truly explore for so long that I'm willing to be burned if it doesn't pan out. 

Also, I got the feeling from this last preview that it isn't exactly procedurally generated as you play.  It seemed like he was saying that the galaxy was already procedurally generated or else, how would you explore something that another player randomly generated when there will be millions of other players randomly generating hundreds of planets? 

I will say, that beyond lack of information, the only concerning thing I've noticed is that in the stage demo, he goes to a random planet that looks exactly like the planet from their first video. If the random generation does not provide a wide enough variety, it will be a deal breaker for me.

You only need to store what is relevant to what the players already explored.  It's easier if you just generate everything else.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2015, 05:17:48 PM »
I'm curious about the destructible terrain. Procedural generation is great for generating a static world, but once a player starts altering it, those changes have to be communicated to other players, otherwise they won't see them. I wonder how they're going to do that, if the game is going to require a constant connection to their servers.

That's a good point.  Have they said whether it's a persistent multiplayer game or if it can be played solo at times?  If it's always multiplayer then there's really no problem since you need to be online anyway.  Each planet probably just has some sort of status file that's updated constantly by what you do and checked by your machine when you warp into the area.  Also, I forgot to comment on the only goal that's been mentioned so far, which was to get to the center of the galaxy.  Any thoughts on what that's all about?

Offline Henning

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2015, 05:35:59 PM »
I'm curious about the destructible terrain. Procedural generation is great for generating a static world, but once a player starts altering it, those changes have to be communicated to other players, otherwise they won't see them. I wonder how they're going to do that, if the game is going to require a constant connection to their servers.

That's a good point.  Have they said whether it's a persistent multiplayer game or if it can be played solo at times?  If it's always multiplayer then there's really no problem since you need to be online anyway.  Each planet probably just has some sort of status file that's updated constantly by what you do and checked by your machine when you warp into the area.  Also, I forgot to comment on the only goal that's been mentioned so far, which was to get to the center of the galaxy.  Any thoughts on what that's all about?

That was my main question too. They say things like procedural generation, emergence, building the planets off an algorithm that can be run forward in time when needed rather than storing all the data... that is awesome and all, but each time a player modifies the planet in some way, that's another addendum to your nice clean algorithm...

Maybe it IS just an exploration of a static universe... or at least one you can't make persistent changes to. In that case, well, I'll still probably buy it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 05:39:07 PM by Henning »
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Offline teethering

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 05:42:51 PM »
I don't think that's an additional problem.  Destructible terrain is just generally a feature that requires work, but lots of games manage to do it.  But combining it with procedurally generated universe-size universe doesn't add a new problem.  Whatever a player has seen has to be "stored", i.e. you have to re-create it when someone sees it again.  If they alter it, you're just doing your regular destructible terrain thing and you still have to store it.

Destructible terrain in multiplayer games is not easy, but first-person games have done it before.

Offline Sordid

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 06:48:45 PM »
Well yeah, that's the point. You have to store those modifications somewhere and distribute them to other players so that everyone's universe matches everyone else's. So that means servers, constant connections, and all the problems that this stuff brings. I don't like games that require constant connections, and it's not because my internet is crap. My internet is perfectly fine, thank you very much, it's your damn servers that are melting down every other day! >:( And how much data is the game going to have to store and distribute? With millions of planets being modified by millions of players, that could get out of hand very quickly.

That's a good point.  Have they said whether it's a persistent multiplayer game or if it can be played solo at times?  If it's always multiplayer then there's really no problem since you need to be online anyway.  Each planet probably just has some sort of status file that's updated constantly by what you do and checked by your machine when you warp into the area.  Also, I forgot to comment on the only goal that's been mentioned so far, which was to get to the center of the galaxy.  Any thoughts on what that's all about?

IIRC they said it's persistent multiplayer but the universe is so vast that you'll only very rarely encounter other players.

As for the goal, I doubt there's going to be anything amazing there. It's probably just a way to point players towards harder content. From what I remember from their earlier videos, they said something about there being a progression of how powerful your character is. I think the example they gave was exploring underwater locations, getting resources from there, using those resources to make better diving equipment allowing for diving deeper, which gets you even better resources, etc., etc., until you're able to dive to the deepest chasms. Basically the classic Minecraft/Terraria progression of "punch tree, make wooden pickaxe, use wooden pickaxe to mine stone, make stone pickaxe, use stone pickaxe to mine iron ore, etc.".

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2015, 06:52:19 PM »
I wonder if maybe the changing lanscape will only apply to the player who changes it or is in the planet/solar system when it is changed.  Maybe the only persistent stuff will be names and who discovered what first?

Offline Sordid

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2015, 07:00:12 PM »
Possibly, though he does say the planets are "fully destructible". You just know people are going to do silly things like cut a planet in half just for shits and giggles, and then what? Nobody else will be able to see that? Or if someone completely dismantles a planet? Will it continue to exist for others? That'd be a bit weird.

When they first said in one of their earlier videos that they had a procedurally generated universe with resource mining, I thought to myself, "oh, the resources will be in nodes, you mine the node and it will become 'depleted' for you, but it'll still be there and available for others, it won't be like Minecraft where mining resources actually destroys terrain". But apparently I was wrong about that. I'm really curious how they handle this.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2015, 07:11:13 PM »
Yeah, I don't know.  It's hard to think of a solution that both works the way we'd want but also is technically feasible.  There have been a lot of major issues with online games being released recently, it's hard to not expect the worse when the concept seems so much above and beyond what those titles were attempting.

Offline TheIrreverend

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2015, 08:20:59 PM »
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Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2015, 08:25:15 PM »
That looks amazing!

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2015, 09:21:47 PM »
Loving that art style.
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Offline teethering

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2015, 09:39:07 PM »
Well yeah, that's the point. You have to store those modifications somewhere and distribute them to other players so that everyone's universe matches everyone else's.

Yes, that's the point you're missing.  With or without destructible terrain once a player sees something it has to be "remembered" and communicated somehow to the other players so that they can inhabit the same universe.  The destruction of terrain doesn't add any complexity to that problem, terrain destruction is a kind of local problem for the session that players are sharing concurrently.  In between sessions with or without the destruction of terrain there would be pretty much the same amount of "remembering".

Quote
So that means servers, constant connections, and all the problems that this stuff brings. I don't like games that require constant connections, and it's not because my internet is crap. My internet is perfectly fine, thank you very much, it's your damn servers that are melting down every other day! >:( And how much data is the game going to have to store and distribute? With millions of planets being modified by millions of players, that could get out of hand very quickly.

That's a good point.  Have they said whether it's a persistent multiplayer game or if it can be played solo at times?  If it's always multiplayer then there's really no problem since you need to be online anyway.  Each planet probably just has some sort of status file that's updated constantly by what you do and checked by your machine when you warp into the area.  Also, I forgot to comment on the only goal that's been mentioned so far, which was to get to the center of the galaxy.  Any thoughts on what that's all about?

IIRC they said it's persistent multiplayer but the universe is so vast that you'll only very rarely encounter other players.

As for the goal, I doubt there's going to be anything amazing there. It's probably just a way to point players towards harder content. From what I remember from their earlier videos, they said something about there being a progression of how powerful your character is. I think the example they gave was exploring underwater locations, getting resources from there, using those resources to make better diving equipment allowing for diving deeper, which gets you even better resources, etc., etc., until you're able to dive to the deepest chasms. Basically the classic Minecraft/Terraria progression of "punch tree, make wooden pickaxe, use wooden pickaxe to mine stone, make stone pickaxe, use stone pickaxe to mine iron ore, etc.".

 

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