Author Topic: E3 2015  (Read 4278 times)

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Offline Sordid

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2015, 09:46:34 PM »
Well yeah, that's the point. You have to store those modifications somewhere and distribute them to other players so that everyone's universe matches everyone else's.

Yes, that's the point you're missing.  With or without destructible terrain once a player sees something it has to be "remembered" and communicated somehow to the other players so that they can inhabit the same universe.

Um, no it doesn't? A procedurally generated world will be the same for everybody precisely because it's procedurally generated, assuming everyone has the same seed processed by the same algorithm. That's kind of what procedural generation means.

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The destruction of terrain doesn't add any complexity to that problem, terrain destruction is a kind of local problem for the session that players are sharing concurrently.  In between sessions with or without the destruction of terrain there would be pretty much the same amount of "remembering".

That's false. You don't need to remember anything if you just have a static procedurally generated world. It's generated for you on-the-fly from a given seed, and it's generated the same every time. If the world is dynamic and you can make changes to it, however, those you do have to store somewhere.

Offline teethering

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2015, 10:19:04 PM »
Well yeah, that's the point. You have to store those modifications somewhere and distribute them to other players so that everyone's universe matches everyone else's.

Yes, that's the point you're missing.  With or without destructible terrain once a player sees something it has to be "remembered" and communicated somehow to the other players so that they can inhabit the same universe.

Um, no it doesn't? A procedurally generated world will be the same for everybody precisely because it's procedurally generated, assuming everyone has the same seed processed by the same algorithm. That's kind of what procedural generation means.

Yes, it does.  At the very least the seed for that world has to be shared.  That seed can be generated randomly for that player or it can be pre-generated to be the same for all players when the universe is created, but either way it's something to be "remembered" at the very least at the moment of "seeing" the world.

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The destruction of terrain doesn't add any complexity to that problem, terrain destruction is a kind of local problem for the session that players are sharing concurrently.  In between sessions with or without the destruction of terrain there would be pretty much the same amount of "remembering".

That's false. You don't need to remember anything if you just have a static procedurally generated world. It's generated for you on-the-fly from a given seed, and it's generated the same every time. If the world is dynamic and you can make changes to it, however, those you do have to store somewhere.

You do have to store the seeds, so no, you can't get away with remembering nothing.  However yes, all the deltas would have to be stored as well.  My point is really that you don't have to upload all those deltas for every world to every player.  It's data local to a session, similar to a problem with something like in Battlefield where a player joins a session on top of loading the map they have to load the deltas for that map.

I hesitate to call this a trivial problem, because terrain destruction is actually hard to do really well on its own.  But the combination of these two features doesn't create some new difficult complexity.

Perhaps your concern was with the amount of storage that would take up?  Storage now is incredibly cheap and terrain compresses really really well.

Offline Eternally Learning

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2015, 10:57:13 PM »
So in talking about No Man's Sky with my brother, he brought up a game that came out not too long ago called Elite: Dangerous, that I'd never heard of.  It has a similar concept of open exploration to billions of procedurally generated solar systems and is a persistent multiplayer game, though you don't leave your ship of go down to planets so we're not talking the same exact thing.  Still, I assume they have similar technical needs with maintaining a persistent, changeable galaxy and so far I've not heard of anything going wrong so there's that.



Side-Note:  This game looks flipping amazing!  It's certainly not a balls to the walls space shoot em up like some of the trailers make it appear, but there is something seriously cool about exploring an approximation of our actual galaxy.  Apparently, they even calculated where Voyager 1 and 2 would be in the year the game takes place and put it there.

Offline Sordid

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2015, 12:36:00 AM »
Well yeah, that's the point. You have to store those modifications somewhere and distribute them to other players so that everyone's universe matches everyone else's.

Yes, that's the point you're missing.  With or without destructible terrain once a player sees something it has to be "remembered" and communicated somehow to the other players so that they can inhabit the same universe.

Um, no it doesn't? A procedurally generated world will be the same for everybody precisely because it's procedurally generated, assuming everyone has the same seed processed by the same algorithm. That's kind of what procedural generation means.

Yes, it does.  At the very least the seed for that world has to be shared.  That seed can be generated randomly for that player or it can be pre-generated to be the same for all players when the universe is created, but either way it's something to be "remembered" at the very least at the moment of "seeing" the world.

Yes, thank you for saying the same thing I did. A simple "I agree" would have sufficed, but this is fine as well.

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You do have to store the seeds, so no, you can't get away with remembering nothing.  However yes, all the deltas would have to be stored as well.  My point is really that you don't have to upload all those deltas for every world to every player.  It's data local to a session, similar to a problem with something like in Battlefield where a player joins a session on top of loading the map they have to load the deltas for that map.

I hesitate to call this a trivial problem, because terrain destruction is actually hard to do really well on its own.  But the combination of these two features doesn't create some new difficult complexity.

Perhaps your concern was with the amount of storage that would take up?  Storage now is incredibly cheap and terrain compresses really really well.

Actually my main concern was whether the game would require a constant connection to a server or not. I don't really give a rat's ass about the amount of storage space the developer will have to purchase and maintain in order to preserve all the changes made to the universe by millions of other players that, according to the developer's own statements, I will never meet. If the game refuses to run because the server is down, however, that I do care about because it directly affects me.

Offline teethering

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2015, 01:14:37 AM »
OK, I must have missed that earlier, but the simple fact is that if you want to share an open universe without instances with other players you have to have a persistent connection with the server network that manages the content and the sessions.

If not having a persistent connection to that network is a hard requirement for you then I think you completely missed the point of No Man's Sky and it's not for you.

Offline Henning

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2015, 01:35:43 AM »
Right.
Me and sordid are thinking of a universe-sized map that is running one continuous session for everybody.
If it regenerates every session like a Battlefield map, that's not really a persistent universe.

I wonder if there is some function you could write that gradually erases the "deltas" over time, like an entropy function... killing complex information build-up, gradually returning the universe to a simpler state, where the algorithms could take over again. Not to the same algorithm that generated the planet before, but simpler than storing the player modifications forever.
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Offline EvilNick

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2015, 03:48:13 PM »
Ha, wow, No Man's Sky has taken over this thread.  Now I really can't wait to see how it works.
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Offline Sordid

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2015, 04:31:04 PM »
I don't really want to think about it too much. The more I think about a game before release, the more disappointed I am by the finished product.

So, anyone looking forward to Dark Souls 3?

Offline EvilNick

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Re: E3 2015
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2015, 04:57:47 PM »
I don't really want to think about it too much. The more I think about a game before release, the more disappointed I am by the finished product.

So, anyone looking forward to Dark Souls 3?

After getting into Bloodborne, yes, I have a growing interest in Dark Souls now.  I may start with the second game, though.  I still need to finish Bloodborne.
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