Author Topic: Warnings should be public  (Read 6088 times)

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Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2015, 12:24:02 PM »
I disagree.  Cry out "BUT... OBJECTIVITY!" all you like, but the same content can be judged as worthy of a warning or not depending on all sorts of context, including who is saying it, who they are saying it to, the tone of the current conversation, and the overall tone of the forum.  Publicly flagging which posts are warning-worthy can ONLY engender lengthy arguments of the nature of "but but but he said A over there and got away scot free, all I said was A.1 which is clearly at-worst equivalent to A so why do you hate me".
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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2015, 12:27:28 PM »
Hasn't everyone on the forum had a warning?

I think I have had three.


I haven't.  Aside from that, I don't see the problem with flagging the post that generated the warning.  That doesn't need to indicate who complained but it would indicate what rule and been violated.

Again, ANYONE who wishes to make their warning public can do so.  It is unfair to shame someone who gets a warning for a single post or even multiple posts.
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Offline Skulker

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2015, 12:32:08 PM »
Hasn't everyone on the forum had a warning?

I think I have had three.


I haven't.  Aside from that, I don't see the problem with flagging the post that generated the warning.  That doesn't need to indicate who complained but it would indicate what rule and been violated.

Again, ANYONE who wishes to make their warning public can do so.  It is unfair to shame someone who gets a warning for a single post or even multiple posts.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2015, 01:24:47 PM »
I think you're upset because you're getting a lot of pushback in this community in regards to your behaviour, Quetzalcoatl.  It's not just the warnings, it's also that lots of people who aren't mods have been critical of how you conduct yourself.  Your response to this has been to refuse to accept any responsibility and heap it all on everyone else.  Which understandably only makes things worse.  The problem is with you and as long as you refuse to even consider that, nothing will change.

What behavior are you talking about? There was some pushback when I quoted Dawkins on Islam on Twitter, and major pushback when I criticized the concept of "cultural appropriation". Not much before that, as I can recall. This indicates that questioning certain concepts is not approved.

Do you doubt it? Consider PANTS! who mostly post snarky images and make snide comments (and these get "like" clicks by commentors for doing so).

But for the sake of argument: Show me a critique of Islam or a critique of "cultural appropriation" that would not result in rudeness from the locals. Most people here are Americans, and Americans are typically so bound up in their political viewpoints (probably due to their tense political climate) so they go mad once anyone question some concept of it.

The concept of "cultural appropriation" is almost conpletely unknown in Europe (or at least Sweden). To the extent that the concept exists, it's an American import, and then only used by radical feminists. You don't ever hear mainstream politicians invoke the concept (though that might unfortunately change, but we don't know yet).
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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2015, 01:35:55 PM »
What behavior are you talking about? There was some pushback when I quoted Dawkins on Islam on Twitter, and major pushback when I criticized the concept of "cultural appropriation". Not much before that, as I can recall. This indicates that questioning certain concepts is not approved.

Speaking only for myself, behavior of yours that I think is worthy of criticism:

*Creating a whole bunch of thread topics within a short time. Not a huge deal, but it's a bit rude.

*Posting an attack on some point of view held by "somebody on the internet," and challenging people to respond to it. I think you've improved a bit in this area already, but you seem eager to trumpet your ideas, and reluctant to just converse. Look at the post you just made: you generalize the denizens of this forum (incorrectly I might add, it's much more international than you apparently think), Americans (whether or not your criticism is correct is irrelevant, because you haven't bothered to find out about the American individuals here), and "radical feminists," (you seem to be ignoring the spirited and enlightening discussion that took place in your absence, unless you consider everybody here to be a radical feminist--which is fine by me).

I think you spend way too much energy generalizing. Arguing against a nebulous thought held by nobody in the room is lazy, and stifles conversation.
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Online Harry Black

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2015, 01:38:15 PM »
Accidental post.

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2015, 01:39:24 PM »
Hasn't everyone on the forum had a warning?

I think I have had three.


I haven't.  Aside from that, I don't see the problem with flagging the post that generated the warning.  That doesn't need to indicate who complained but it would indicate what rule and been violated.
In extreme cases they'll basically do that, either by deleting the content (in which case anyone can see that it was a mod that removed it) or putting a modbox below it saying "okay guys, things are getting out of hand here, let's knock it off" (although a lot of the times I imagine there are not warnings given out then, the hope being that people will play nicely with each other after that happens). I'm pretty against what you're saying for a couple of reasons:

1. Not all reported posts get reported. In fact, part of the "fun" of hanging out in the super-secret and yet publicly extant and advertised forum chatroom is that sometimes when I report a post a mod will be right there to say to me "Johnny Slick, you reported this for dumb reasons and no further action will be taken". I suspect that not everyone who reports stuff is ready to encounter that kind of negative feedback.

2. This crap tends to lead to public lobbying of the mods, which, fuck that noise. The mods are not paid to do what they do. I know that some of them have actually had their SGUF experience negatively impacted by the strains of moderating and, frankly, it sounds way too much like work to me. Reddit, for all its emphasis on freeze peach, doesn't even publicly announce warnings/bannings - they even have the shadowban that hides posts from everybody but the poster so they don't figure out nobody can see them troll until they take extra steps. I don't understand why we'd want to tax these people more, that is unless we get our jollies from pissing off authority types, in which case go pepper spray a cop or something.

3. Additionally, for people such as the OP, a huge negative side effect of making warnings public is that everybody gets to see exactly how far they can push the mods before the hammer goes down and also exactly how far they have to push someone to elicit a warning-worth response from them. Sometimes (as with at least a couple of what I can only guess were the warned posts that resulted in OP's vacation) it's rather obvious but other times, especially when the original poster is recalcitrant and removes the offensive content, it's not. When a person is going out of their way to piss off a group of people, it is not uncommon for that group to find its own creative ways to get rid of the pisser offer and bring harmony back to the group. Hiding warnings prevents one of the easier ways of doing this.
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Offline teethering

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2015, 01:57:55 PM »
I think Drunken Idaho covers what I would say.  If you think it's about you criticizing Islam you haven't been paying attention.

Additionally in cultural appropriation thread specifically I made posts addressing your behavior which I think causes other people to push back.  Again, this is territory we've covered, but you haven't been paying attention, despite the fact that you've responded refusing to take responsibility for the noise-fest which your endless strawmen threads about "the left" generate.  In fact the cultural appropriation thread would have been the perfect lesson for you in how an interesting discussion could blossom from your initial post  as long as you're not participating in it and pissing people off with your bullshit.  There was wide disagreement, but it was on point and respectful.

Offline amysrevenge

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2015, 01:58:23 PM »
But for the sake of argument: Show me a critique of Islam or a critique of "cultural appropriation" that would not result in rudeness from the locals.

For a period of about three days, beginning shortly after August 12, 2015, 06:07:25 PM (in my time zone, MDT), we had a spirited discussion about cultural appropriation, with people arguing on both sides, with some opinions being changed, reaching a broad consensus, and remaining with some amount of agreeing to disagree, without a lot of rudeness from either side.  In other words, an adult conversation.

Starting about here, with reply #46.
 
Going through to about here, reply #162.

After which point the discussion drifted over to the separate (but related) topic of political correctness for a bit, and then went completely OT later on.

Interesting note:  in reply #173 here, someone returned to the conversation after an absence covering the above period of discussion, and began posting as if no time had passed and none of the discussion had taken place.  Almost as if this returning poster hadn't read any of the intervening posts since the OP, where other community members even took up the argument in the OP from a similar position (or at least with similar propositions, if maybe starting out from different premises).
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2015, 03:18:15 PM »
*Creating a whole bunch of thread topics within a short time. Not a huge deal, but it's a bit rude.

Yet for all of that, most of them seem to have resulted in quite a bit of discussion. A bad thing?

*Posting an attack on some point of view held by "somebody on the internet," and challenging people to respond to it. I think you've improved a bit in this area already, but you seem eager to trumpet your ideas, and reluctant to just converse. Look at the post you just made: you generalize the denizens of this forum (incorrectly I might add, it's much more international than you apparently think), Americans (whether or not your criticism is correct is irrelevant, because you haven't bothered to find out about the American individuals here), and "radical feminists," (you seem to be ignoring the spirited and enlightening discussion that took place in your absence, unless you consider everybody here to be a radical feminist--which is fine by me).

I think you spend way too much energy generalizing. Arguing against a nebulous thought held by nobody in the room is lazy, and stifles conversation.

It's hard to converse when you get this. I may have generalized a bit about Americans, fair enough.

I have made plenty of threads not challenging anyone, for example the one about cultural Christianity. I have also made posts in threads I did not start.
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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2015, 03:42:47 PM »

It's hard to converse when you get this. I may have generalized a bit about Americans, fair enough.

I have made plenty of threads not challenging anyone, for example the one about cultural Christianity. I have also made posts in threads I did not start.

You cherry picked that, and also in that post I see something that was quite insulting on your part too. 

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Offline PANTS!

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2015, 03:47:51 PM »
It's hard to converse when you get this. I may have generalized a bit about Americans, fair enough.

That is not how time and causality works.  Future snark does not go back in time and cause a person to post diatribes about strawmen.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2015, 03:48:48 PM »

It's hard to converse when you get this. I may have generalized a bit about Americans, fair enough.

I have made plenty of threads not challenging anyone, for example the one about cultural Christianity. I have also made posts in threads I did not start.

You cherry picked that, and also in that post I see something that was quite insulting on your part too.

If I'm giving an example, of course I'm going to cherry-pick. How else would one do it?

The "insulting" part (which wasn't really insulting) was my disappointment that he didn't reply to my reply. I didn't insult him in that post.

The (completely uncalled for) insult came from PANTS!. Nobody else.
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2015, 06:18:44 PM »
Quetzalcoatl,

Let me relate a personal anecdote.  There have been a couple of times when I've expressed a somewhat controversial opinion and gotten into a discussion where I was respectfully disagreeing with quite a few people at once.  As a pure matter of numbers (because multiple people can disagree with you for various reasons) the whole thing would sometimes feel like a moving goalpost because each question / point needed to be addressed separately.  Further (because of the nature of forums) there's no waiting for somebody else to speak and then having the conversation follow that path and resolve before moving on.  So in a situation under the best circumstances the Gish gallup is what you're effectively looking at in contentious one v many discussions.

Now throw out the respectful part and it gets even worse.  I think I may have reported one post my entire time here, while I am certain that mine have been (sometimes very legitimately) reported much more frequently.  So basically others have said things I thought were insulting, but whatever, I let it go; don't want to ruin the topic after all.  Then eventually I'd snap, and of course then (due to others using that report button when I wasn't) here come the mods to tell everyone to cool it.  Seems so selective, but ultimately it's the result of my own desire not to tattle, as it were.  So I had to decide (after an event that had me banned for over a year), either I start reporting others or I just accept the fact that the mods are going to be more likely to show up when I've crossed the line than the other way around, and not because of bias on their part, but because I stubbornly refuse to use them.

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Warnings should be public
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2015, 12:47:55 AM »
The moral of the story is: If you think a post breaches the Membership Agreement, report it. Either the mods will do something about it, or they won't. If they don't, then you know that post has not been judged to be in breach of the rules.

I've been a moderator at several forums, and this is the best advice I can give. Use the reporting feature, but don't over-use it. Keep track of what you report to see whether the mods take action or not, and adjust your own behaviour depending on what you observe gets moderated and what doesn't.

Also, be polite and follow the MA yourself.

 

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