Author Topic: Tesla Model 3  (Read 10704 times)

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Offline Fast Eddie B

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #135 on: February 22, 2019, 09:50:13 PM »
Reminds me of when I worked for an auto parts store. Part of my job was mounting tires. I recall a fellow came in and paid for standard black wall tires and paid that price. All we had in his size were whitewalls, so the owner instructed me to mount them white wall side in. The buyer saw what was going on, and asked if, as long as white walls were going on anyway, if I couldn’t mount them white walls out. I told him no, the owner said he paid for black walls, he’d get black walls. I felt funny with that rationale, and I don’t think it made for a happy customer. Who could have so easily been a very happy customer who got a really good deal.

Maybe not exactly the same, but seems similar. As does artificial “throttling” computers or phones if you don’t pay a premium to “unlock” features that are there anyway.

Maybe that doesn’t bug some people. It bugs me.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #136 on: February 23, 2019, 10:52:51 AM »
Reminds me of when I worked for an auto parts store. Part of my job was mounting tires. I recall a fellow came in and paid for standard black wall tires and paid that price. All we had in his size were whitewalls, so the owner instructed me to mount them white wall side in. The buyer saw what was going on, and asked if, as long as white walls were going on anyway, if I couldn’t mount them white walls out. I told him no, the owner said he paid for black walls, he’d get black walls. I felt funny with that rationale, and I don’t think it made for a happy customer. Who could have so easily been a very happy customer who got a really good deal.

Maybe not exactly the same, but seems similar. As does artificial “throttling” computers or phones if you don’t pay a premium to “unlock” features that are there anyway.

Maybe that doesn’t bug some people. It bugs me.

The customer wanted more than he paid for. The owner could have had a happy customer if he'd given him that. But then he'd have been flooded with customers demanding white-wall tires for black-wall prices.

If Tesla gave away EAP for free, nobody would pay for it and the company would lose all the money they spent developing it.

It's the dilemma of a product that costs a huge amount of money to develop but costs little to nothing to deliver. Giving it away for free deprives the company of revenue on something that cost them money to create.

It costs Amazon nothing to upload (download?) a book onto my Kindle. Should they then load every Kindle they sell with every book in their catalog for free? It would make customers happy. But if they did that they could not afford to offer the books at all.

If Tesla gave away EAP for free, because it's just software that they can turn on or off at will, they would not have been able to make it available in the first place. They'd make a lot of customers very happy, and they'd go bankrupt. They've done something no other car company does: They've given a free trial period on one of the most sophisticated and amazing features ever offered to the general public in a car. Try before you buy is an incredibly generous thing to offer. Here's what they're doing: It's like if you bought a Mercedes, and for the first month they gave you a car one trim-line above the one you paid for; then at the end of the month, you could pay the difference and keep it, or you could turn the car back in and get the one you paid for. That's what Tesla does with the free trial month. And they probably lose sales as some people, once they try it, won't feel it's worth the cost.

Full disclosure: I own two Teslas and I think they're the best thing ever. (Trying to sell the first one only because I don't need two cars.) I also own a couple of hundred shares of the company because I think what they're doing is good for the world: helping to move us toward electric transportation capable of being operated from renewable energy. I don't care what the stock price does because I don't ever expect to sell my shares, but I want the company to succeed because I think that electric transportation is the way we need to go.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
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Offline Fast Eddie B

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #137 on: February 23, 2019, 12:32:50 PM »
I like Tesla. The appreciation in their stock price enabled me to buy our Clarity PHEV, and I’m gradually getting back into the stock a share at a time. I wish them well, and may very well own one in the future.

But I still disagree with your premise. The investment they put into EAP could also have been recovered by the increased sales seen because the base car was more desirable.

My Clarity came with a small “suite” of driver-assist items. I don’t see Honda as suffering by offering them to me for “free”. They did not color my purchase decision, but they certainly may have influenced others. I would have been mildly annoyed if they were all in place but crippled because I didn’t pay extra.

An analogy might be buying a car where power steering is an option. You decline the option, but find all the requisite parts in place - but with a “friction brake” installed to simulate unassisted steering, and impossible to defeat. I can guess your take on this as well, so I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 12:34:52 PM by Fast Eddie B »

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2019, 09:11:44 AM »
I like Tesla. The appreciation in their stock price enabled me to buy our Clarity PHEV, and I’m gradually getting back into the stock a share at a time. I wish them well, and may very well own one in the future.

But I still disagree with your premise. The investment they put into EAP could also have been recovered by the increased sales seen because the base car was more desirable.

My Clarity came with a small “suite” of driver-assist items. I don’t see Honda as suffering by offering them to me for “free”. They did not color my purchase decision, but they certainly may have influenced others. I would have been mildly annoyed if they were all in place but crippled because I didn’t pay extra.

An analogy might be buying a car where power steering is an option. You decline the option, but find all the requisite parts in place - but with a “friction brake” installed to simulate unassisted steering, and impossible to defeat. I can guess your take on this as well, so I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree!

The problem is that if Tesla did that they could not offer their base model at the discounted price they now offer it at. Indeed, they previously did include autopilot free with all vehicles.  They made this change so that they could offer a cheaper model to compete with new electric vehicles coming to market without the feature while still recovering the cost of development from those willing to pay for it.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Fast Eddie B

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #139 on: March 18, 2019, 08:31:15 AM »
Your logic seems sound and may be slowly nibbling away at my position.

I was watching a video comparing hearing aid brands. One was touted for the fact that you could buy one with just the features you needed now, and later could upgrade to a more full-featured model with just a firmware upgrade.

I still jump to analogies that would annoy me. For instance, buying a base model Corvette and finding out that, in software, there’s code preventing the engine from developing full power and that it costs $10,000 to unlock the additional HP via a firmware patch.

But as I said, you’re starting to convince me.

Offline Alex Simmons

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #140 on: March 18, 2019, 09:55:08 AM »
finding out that, in software, there’s code preventing the engine from developing full power
That's the case for pretty much all relatively modern vehicles, most are not tuned for anywhere near their maximal potential power output.

With a programming change applied to the engine management chip, I added 50 bhp to my 12 year old Golf. More is certainly possible but then you begin to sacrifice elements of drive-ability. $10k for a tuning adjustment is completely nuts. It's something you can do with most vehicles for less than 1/10th of that.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #141 on: March 18, 2019, 10:52:33 AM »
Your logic seems sound and may be slowly nibbling away at my position.

I was watching a video comparing hearing aid brands. One was touted for the fact that you could buy one with just the features you needed now, and later could upgrade to a more full-featured model with just a firmware upgrade.

I still jump to analogies that would annoy me. For instance, buying a base model Corvette and finding out that, in software, there’s code preventing the engine from developing full power and that it costs $10,000 to unlock the additional HP via a firmware patch.

But as I said, you’re starting to convince me.

But with the Tesla it's not a case of buying it and then later finding out that you need to pay for features you thought were included. So your Corvette analogy does not fit the case. With the Tesla, before you buy the car you are shown the list of included features and the list of optional features and what they cost. You get to decide beforehand what features you want and are willing to pay for. But to return to the Corvette anology, with the Tesla you are given an additional choice: It's as if you could buy the Corvette with the smaller engine to keep your cost down, but upgrade to a bigger engine (in this case autopilot, rather than more power) at any time in the future, just by paying for the upgrade, and it becomes effective immediately without ever visiting the shop. And they even give you the opportunity to try out the autopilot (or in the Corvette analogy, the bigger engine) before you decide to buy it.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2019, 09:50:08 AM »
There is an element of prospect theory in how people react to this sort of 'upgrade'. Many people feel a loss - that they are being denied something that is essentially free, not that they could gain something with a flip-a-bit "upgrade".
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Offline Fast Eddie B

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #143 on: March 19, 2019, 10:05:04 AM »
There is an element of prospect theory in how people react to this sort of 'upgrade'. Many people feel a loss - that they are being denied something that is essentially free, not that they could gain something with a flip-a-bit "upgrade".

Well put, which is why I'm finding myself more on the fence about this, depending on the analogy/situation.

Offline brilligtove

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #144 on: March 19, 2019, 05:05:38 PM »
There is an element of prospect theory in how people react to this sort of 'upgrade'. Many people feel a loss - that they are being denied something that is essentially free, not that they could gain something with a flip-a-bit "upgrade".

Well put, which is why I'm finding myself more on the fence about this, depending on the analogy/situation.

Thanks.

The way humans evaluate was the core of my work for about six years. It is much more complex than we think. In this situation, there is a combination of two categories of debt that are in conflict with each other: contractual debts always represent a decrease in value until the debt is paid off; familial debts represent an increase in value that persists until the debt is cancelled.

(click to show/hide)

The value of all human relationships are founded on these two kinds of debt (some are almost all one or the other). Our relationships with corporations and products are a complicated mix of both types of debt too. Consider a fan's relationship to a team - say the Rams. Most of that relationship is based in familial debt. Sure, there is contractual debt with those entities. It is transactional: after the ticket is purchased and the game is viewed, you and the Rams owe each other nothing because the contractual debt is paid off. But if you care about their progress, feel invested in the community of fans, participate by dressing up or cheering... those are all gifts you're giving them. If the team treats its fans like family - respecting those gifts - they will do what they can to give gifts to those fans. Maybe it's donations to the community, or swag at the game. It's not something that is being paid for: it's gifts that create debt with a positive value to the team and the fan.

With Tesla's features, you have to ask to what extent customers see these as products or services that should be paid for with a contractual exchange of 'normal' debt? To what extent are these seen as gifts given to customers as a way to respect the familial debt those customers show the company? For the people who are upset, I expect they feel like their friends came to their birthday party, gave them nice gifts, and then said, "Oh, and the invoice is in the box. Payment in 30 days." That isn't a gift anymore, and by transforming a familial debt into a contractual debt, you flip something that had positive value into something that has negative value. That hurts.
evidence trumps experience | performance over perfection | responsibility – authority = scapegoat | emotions motivate; data doesn't

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #145 on: March 19, 2019, 05:32:00 PM »
 I wear hearing aids myself, so I am quite aware of this issue. Modern hearing aids are a miracle of miniaturization and design, packing sophisticated electronics and complicated software into a tiny package. They require years of design work, and most of the expense of their creation is involved in their development, not their production. I doubt that of the $5000 my hearing aids cost more than a few hundred represents the actual cost of production, shipping, etc.  Nor is the hardware involved in the more sophisticated hearing aids significantly different from what is needed by the less sophisticated ones.

The hearing aids I use come in three varieties, which include different features and levels of sophistication; but there is no physical difference whatsoever between the three levels.  The difference is entirely in firmware.  You are paying for differences in the sophistication of the software algorithms that process the sound, reduce noise, suppress feedback, etc. It is no different from purchasing different licenses for a software program that enable different features: you aren’t paying for a difference in what you have, but for a difference in what you can do with it. If you need more advanced features, you pay for their development; and those who do not pay for it aren’t being cheated out of something, they are merely not being required to pay for features they don’t need (or, if they need them but cannot afford them, they are getting affordable access to at least some of the features they need).
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 05:34:40 PM by The Latinist »
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Offline brilligtove

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2019, 09:52:35 PM »
That's a good example, The Latinist. I think the crux of it lies in your last parenthetical statement: "...or, if they need them but cannot afford them, they are getting affordable access to at least some of the features they need." Some people will judge the company as witholding those features from the poor. Others see it as offering features in as affordable a manner as they can. These perspectives are both correct and both incorrect, depending on what values judge the company's actions against. Is the ability to hear well enough to frictionlessly interact with hearing folks a right associated with being humans? A privilege of wealth? Some combination that feels morally ambiguous?

Value is a lot trickier than we think.
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #147 on: March 20, 2019, 02:59:32 PM »
But that is a ridiculous thing to feel, which does not recognize the economic realities.  The alternative to such a pricing structure is not that everyone receive the full-featured aid at the lower price; it means either that only the full-featured aid is sold at all and those who cannot afford it do not have access to any of the aid’s features or that the company cannot invest in the research that created those features and nobody gets the more advanced aids at all.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Captain Video

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #148 on: March 20, 2019, 03:17:42 PM »
I bet it creates an after market hacking device/system/code to turn it on.

It may have changed but I have read that there is no EULA with the software. Of course then you would void your warranty and probably wont get future software updates.
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Offline Fast Eddie B

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Re: Tesla Model 3
« Reply #149 on: March 20, 2019, 05:38:37 PM »
But that is a ridiculous thing to feel...

The thing about feelings is that they’re not necessarily rational.

I think brilligtove did a good job in explaining the roots of some of these feelings, with complicated roots in psychology, sociology and even economics. As such, dismissing such feelings as “ridiculous” is a bit dismissive.

And a company which doesn’t frame these things properly may provoke negative feelings about their product, rational or not.

I know the fellow mentioned upstream who had his tires mounted whitewall-in thought my boss Eli was a jerk for doing so, and may have decided to not do business with such a person in the future.