Author Topic: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.  (Read 9248 times)

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Offline The Latinist

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2016, 11:32:42 PM »
The government does not allow gay marriage.  Suddenly the government makes it illegal to not sell products and services for gay marriages.  We can't just let culture change, we need to always use the law to impose our will on everyone.  Makes me so proud actually to oppose people like this when they were the majority and then defend them when they're the minority.  Let's me know that my priorities are in the right place.

Should they be allowed to refuse to rent the facility they publicly offer for rent to a Catholic couple?  A Jewish couple? A mixed-race  couple? A black couple?

This is not some novel legal interpretation or law designed to force people to participate in gay marriages. It's the standard law of public accommodations which holds that, if you offer a public accommodation (food, lodging, transportation, etc.) you cannot refuse that service to anyone on the basis of certain prohibited characteristics.  Are you really arguing against the legal basis of the end of Jim-Crow segregation?
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Pusher Robot

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2016, 02:18:35 AM »
You're conflating the case of discrimination against persons vs. discrimination against types of events.  You are assuming the premise that there is no discernible distinction between a traditional marriage and a same-sex marriage, but by doing so you are simply assuming the conclusion of the question at controversy.  I presume you would agree with the general principle that discrimination on the basis of event - or, service provided - is categorically different, right?  Should they be legally obliged to rent out their facility for sex orgies or political conventions?
A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by turning the power off and on.
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Knight turned the machine off and on.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2016, 03:04:36 AM »
You're conflating the case of discrimination against persons vs. discrimination against types of events.  You are assuming the premise that there is no discernible distinction between a traditional marriage and a same-sex marriage, but by doing so you are simply assuming the conclusion of the question at controversy.  I presume you would agree with the general principle that discrimination on the basis of event - or, service provided - is categorically different, right?  Should they be legally obliged to rent out their facility for sex orgies or political conventions?

But the type of event is directly related to the type of person. Gay people are the only people who get gay-married. Similarly, "No bar-mitzvahs" while allowing quinceañeras would also be discrimination, because for all practical purposes you're only discriminating against Jewish people.
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2016, 04:53:40 AM »
The government does not allow gay marriage.  Suddenly the government makes it illegal to not sell products and services for gay marriages.  We can't just let culture change, we need to always use the law to impose our will on everyone.  Makes me so proud actually to oppose people like this when they were the majority and then defend them when they're the minority.  Let's me know that my priorities are in the right place.

Should they be allowed to refuse to rent the facility they publicly offer for rent to a Catholic couple?  A Jewish couple? A mixed-race  couple? A black couple?

This is not some novel legal interpretation or law designed to force people to participate in gay marriages. It's the standard law of public accommodations which holds that, if you offer a public accommodation (food, lodging, transportation, etc.) you cannot refuse that service to anyone on the basis of certain prohibited characteristics.  Are you really arguing against the legal basis of the end of Jim-Crow segregation?

They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2016, 05:53:08 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Offline Tatyana

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2016, 06:30:03 AM »
The government does not allow gay marriage.  Suddenly the government makes it illegal to not sell products and services for gay marriages.  We can't just let culture change, we need to always use the law to impose our will on everyone.  Makes me so proud actually to oppose people like this when they were the majority and then defend them when they're the minority.  Let's me know that my priorities are in the right place.

Should they be allowed to refuse to rent the facility they publicly offer for rent to a Catholic couple?  A Jewish couple? A mixed-race  couple? A black couple?

This is not some novel legal interpretation or law designed to force people to participate in gay marriages. It's the standard law of public accommodations which holds that, if you offer a public accommodation (food, lodging, transportation, etc.) you cannot refuse that service to anyone on the basis of certain prohibited characteristics.  Are you really arguing against the legal basis of the end of Jim-Crow segregation?

They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

This doesn't make any sense, what is happening to the LGBT community in some places in the US is comparable to the Jim Crow laws.

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2016, 06:39:13 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?

Sure.  Oh no a hypothetical horror that will never actually happen!
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2016, 06:43:28 AM »
The government does not allow gay marriage.  Suddenly the government makes it illegal to not sell products and services for gay marriages.  We can't just let culture change, we need to always use the law to impose our will on everyone.  Makes me so proud actually to oppose people like this when they were the majority and then defend them when they're the minority.  Let's me know that my priorities are in the right place.

Should they be allowed to refuse to rent the facility they publicly offer for rent to a Catholic couple?  A Jewish couple? A mixed-race  couple? A black couple?

This is not some novel legal interpretation or law designed to force people to participate in gay marriages. It's the standard law of public accommodations which holds that, if you offer a public accommodation (food, lodging, transportation, etc.) you cannot refuse that service to anyone on the basis of certain prohibited characteristics.  Are you really arguing against the legal basis of the end of Jim-Crow segregation?

They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

This doesn't make any sense, what is happening to the LGBT community in some places in the US is comparable to the Jim Crow laws.

I'm not sure if your misunderstanding me or if you're just putting forward a premise as a conclusion.
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

Offline The Latinist

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2016, 08:31:27 AM »
I think she's having trouble comprehending that your position is really as abhorrent as it is.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline Desert Fox

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2016, 08:38:36 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?

Sure.  Oh no a hypothetical horror that will never actually happen!

There are places where TGs have lost jobs for coming out and gays who have been unable to get an apartment because their sexual orientation. That is very much making it very hard to live in a similar manner to refusing to sell them food. 
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2016, 09:16:01 AM »
This bullshit is why libertarianism can't be mainstream.  It's not that the media is out to get Libertarians or that the system is rigged, it's that you're a bunch of morally bankrupt assholes and your ideas are abhorrent.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline daniel1948

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2016, 10:09:26 AM »
You're conflating the case of discrimination against persons vs. discrimination against types of events.  You are assuming the premise that there is no discernible distinction between a traditional marriage and a same-sex marriage, but by doing so you are simply assuming the conclusion of the question at controversy.  I presume you would agree with the general principle that discrimination on the basis of event - or, service provided - is categorically different, right?  Should they be legally obliged to rent out their facility for sex orgies or political conventions?

The law in the United States today is that there is no difference between a same-sex marriage and an opposite-sex marriage. Nobody is assuming anything. The question has been decided in law by the courts, and citizens are required to obey the law on pain of criminal prosecution.

People can believe whatever they like, but discrimination based on certain criteria is illegal. A wedding chapel can legally refuse to host an orgy or a political convention. It cannot refuse to host the marriage of a same-sex couple. This is exactly analogous to lunch counters in the old South refusing to serve black people. A wedding is a wedding, and if you operate a public business hosting weddings, you cannot refuse to host the wedding of a couple who are legally entitled to marry. Besides being illegal, it is hateful and reprehensible.
Daniel
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Offline Pusher Robot

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2016, 10:23:10 AM »
You're conflating the case of discrimination against persons vs. discrimination against types of events.  You are assuming the premise that there is no discernible distinction between a traditional marriage and a same-sex marriage, but by doing so you are simply assuming the conclusion of the question at controversy.  I presume you would agree with the general principle that discrimination on the basis of event - or, service provided - is categorically different, right?  Should they be legally obliged to rent out their facility for sex orgies or political conventions?

The law in the United States today is that there is no difference between a same-sex marriage and an opposite-sex marriage. Nobody is assuming anything. The question has been decided in law by the courts, and citizens are required to obey the law on pain of criminal prosecution.

That law only applies to the government.  There's no law that individual citizens must treat them exactly the same.

Quote
People can believe whatever they like, but discrimination based on certain criteria is illegal. A wedding chapel can legally refuse to host an orgy or a political convention. It cannot refuse to host the marriage of a same-sex couple. This is exactly analogous to lunch counters in the old South refusing to serve black people.

Again, that's begging the question.  It's indisputable that black people were asking for identical lunch service that white people were.  It's controversial that same-sex marriage is an identical service to traditional marriage.

A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by turning the power off and on.
Knight, seeing what the student was doing, spoke sternly: “You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong.”
Knight turned the machine off and on.
The machine worked.

Offline random poet

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2016, 10:28:51 AM »
This bullshit is why libertarianism can't be mainstream.  It's not that the media is out to get Libertarians or that the system is rigged, it's that you're a bunch of morally bankrupt assholes and your ideas are abhorrent.
I saw a bert trying to defend his people the other day, in the comments on a news story (about how gary johnson, who's running for president, can't even name one foreign leader). He was all like "this is just one asshole making us all look bad. Libertarianism is the most American political system, you just don't know it because we have branding problem."

No, dude, you don't get it. You don't have a branding problem. You really, really, actually are as bad as that asshole makes you guys out to be. The problem is not publicly being an ignorant turdwaffle or not, it's that your ideology is rotten to the core.
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2016, 10:34:01 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?

Sure.  Oh no a hypothetical horror that will never actually happen!

There are places where TGs have lost jobs for coming out and gays who have been unable to get an apartment because their sexual orientation. That is very much making it very hard to live in a similar manner to refusing to sell them food.

In order to change the laws you need to change the culture, once you've changed the culture you don't need to change the law.  Boycotts are powerful things.  But really, if we are going to discuss this, we need to pick a particular situation to keep it form blowing up into some yelling rage war about people screaming about evil libertari... oh wait, too late.
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

 

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