Author Topic: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.  (Read 7653 times)

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Offline Mr. Beagle

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2016, 10:37:43 AM »
To me it is pretty simple. Civil rights laws are meaningless without the concept of public accommodation. They cannot be enforced, thus becoming "civil suggestions" only.
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Online Ah.hell

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2016, 10:40:54 AM »
With out government sanction, segregation fails.  Pretty much every example of the need to force folks to do business with people they don't like can be traced to some government policy that encouraged or enforced the segregation in the first place.

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2016, 10:43:16 AM »
With out government sanction, segregation fails.  Pretty much every example of the need to force folks to do business with people they don't like can be traced to some government policy that encouraged or enforced the segregation in the first place.

"We've learned our lesson, and now only we can fix the problem we created!"  Trade out "fix the problem" with "heal the pain" and it works for religion instead of government.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2016, 10:47:27 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?

Sure.  Oh no a hypothetical horror that will never actually happen!

Redlining never happened, "sundown" towns and laws never happened, all just a things the liberal conspiracy made up.
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Online Harry Black

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2016, 10:51:18 AM »
With out government sanction, segregation fails.  Pretty much every example of the need to force folks to do business with people they don't like can be traced to some government policy that encouraged or enforced the segregation in the first place.
Its not about making people get along though. We have to wait for that to happen.
Its about making it so bigots cant make life worse for people they hate through means of denying them services they may require.
In a small enough community, that could mean a person needs to move house, relocate their family and quit a job.
People who would be discriminated against wont want to use bigots services if they can avoid it, when they cant then they need to be able to live like everyone else.
We got nowhere by asking people not to smoke in restaurants, by asking people to make buildings wheelchair accessible or by asking guys not to grab womens tits in the office.
We force them to let others live in dignity. We make it hard for them to make peoples lives harder and we wait for the culture to catch up.
It usually does.

Edited for thumbslip.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 11:17:28 AM by Harry Black »

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2016, 10:54:49 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?

Sure.  Oh no a hypothetical horror that will never actually happen!

Redlining never happened, "sundown" towns and laws never happened, all just a things the liberal conspiracy made up.

Ah, you're not understanding my argument.  Discrimination that is codified in law is a problem, but discriminatory practices cannot survive in business without those laws and institutionalize racism.
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

Offline Mr. Beagle

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2016, 10:56:56 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?

Sure.  Oh no a hypothetical horror that will never actually happen!

Redlining never happened, "sundown" towns and laws never happened, all just a things the liberal conspiracy made up.

A friend moved from Alabama to Cincinnati a few years ago, where I was living at the time. His Alabama-based company gave him the name of a real estate agent to work with, and he showed me a map of Cincinnati she had given him, literally with red ink lines outlining certain neighborhoods with labels stating "Minority" and "Jewish." I was impressed that they used the word "Minority."
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2016, 11:00:28 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?

Sure.  Oh no a hypothetical horror that will never actually happen!

Redlining never happened, "sundown" towns and laws never happened, all just a things the liberal conspiracy made up.

Ah, you're not understanding my argument.  Discrimination that is codified in law is a problem, but discriminatory practices cannot survive in business without those laws and institutionalize racism.

Except that they did, and still do, right up until the law says they can't. Redlining wasn't a law, it was a practice of discrimination. Housing discrimination is documented in major cities annually, and yet it persists. Bigots in recent years have not just continued to be bigots until taken to court, but actually convinced other bigots to send them MORE money.

I understand your argument, but it's based on a false premise that ignores both the last decade and the history of the civil rights movement in favor of an ideological retelling of history.
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2016, 11:06:35 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?

Sure.  Oh no a hypothetical horror that will never actually happen!

Redlining never happened, "sundown" towns and laws never happened, all just a things the liberal conspiracy made up.

Ah, you're not understanding my argument.  Discrimination that is codified in law is a problem, but discriminatory practices cannot survive in business without those laws and institutionalize racism.

Except that they did, and still do, right up until the law says they can't. Redlining wasn't a law, it was a practice of discrimination. Housing discrimination is documented in major cities annually, and yet it persists. Bigots in recent years have not just continued to be bigots until taken to court, but actually convinced other bigots to send them MORE money.

I understand your argument, but it's based on a false premise that ignores both the last decade and the history of the civil rights movement in favor of an ideological retelling of history.

So I'm arguing that the laws are not needed, and you're arguing that they don't work?
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2016, 11:10:49 AM »
They should be allowed that.  Treating private business as public facilities was a horrible aspect of the civil rights act.  The government segregated and then instead of merely stopping the harmful policy, our leaders of course decided that only government could fix the bigotry that it had propped up and inserted itself into private citizens' use of their property.  It's the same story here.

So if every grocery store in town decided that gays cannot shop there. . . They can just starve?

Sure.  Oh no a hypothetical horror that will never actually happen!

Redlining never happened, "sundown" towns and laws never happened, all just a things the liberal conspiracy made up.

Ah, you're not understanding my argument.  Discrimination that is codified in law is a problem, but discriminatory practices cannot survive in business without those laws and institutionalize racism.

Except that they did, and still do, right up until the law says they can't. Redlining wasn't a law, it was a practice of discrimination. Housing discrimination is documented in major cities annually, and yet it persists. Bigots in recent years have not just continued to be bigots until taken to court, but actually convinced other bigots to send them MORE money.

I understand your argument, but it's based on a false premise that ignores both the last decade and the history of the civil rights movement in favor of an ideological retelling of history.

So I'm arguing that the laws are not needed, and you're arguing that they don't work?
They work when they can be enforced, and are used to sue when people can be caught. Trump's been sued and settled under such laws. Without the laws, there is no recourse and things spread.

You're suffering a historical deficiency and a false dichotomy.
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Offline random poet

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2016, 11:13:44 AM »
With out government sanction, segregation fails.  Pretty much every example of the need to force folks to do business with people they don't like can be traced to some government policy that encouraged or enforced the segregation in the first place.
Its not about making people get along though. We have to wait for that to happen.
Its about making it so bigots cant make life worse for people they hate through means of denying them services they may require.
In a small enough community, that could mean a person needs to move house, relocate their family and quit a job.
People who would be discriminated against wont want to use bigots services if they can avoid it, then they cant then they need to be able to live like everyone else.
We got nowhere by asking people not to smoke in restaurants, by asking people to make buildings wheelchair accessible or by asking guys not to grab womens tits in the office.
We force them to let others live in dignity. We make it hard for them to make peoples lives harder and we wait for the culture to catch up.
It usually does.
Yep, it's just like I was saying in another thread: If you don't legislate for equality, it doesn't happen.
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2016, 11:15:21 AM »
SkeptiQueer, (Too much quote blocking so I dropped it.)

I'm really not trying to force your into a corner or feed you a false position.  I'm legitimately attempting to engage with your argument, but nobody on your side seems to think they need to explain themselves or their positions here, as if it's just a given and how dare anyone question the forgone conclusion.  Now please, pick a specific case and example (as suggested earlier) to ground the conversation around real world data.
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2016, 11:19:25 AM »
SkeptiQueer, (Too much quote blocking so I dropped it.)

I'm really not trying to force your into a corner or feed you a false position.  I'm legitimately attempting to engage with your argument, but nobody on your side seems to think they need to explain themselves or their positions here, as if it's just a given and how dare anyone question the forgone conclusion.  Now please, pick a specific case and example (as suggested earlier) to ground the conversation around real world data.
Why should we move to a specific case?
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2016, 11:24:37 AM »
SkeptiQueer, (Too much quote blocking so I dropped it.)

I'm really not trying to force your into a corner or feed you a false position.  I'm legitimately attempting to engage with your argument, but nobody on your side seems to think they need to explain themselves or their positions here, as if it's just a given and how dare anyone question the forgone conclusion.  Now please, pick a specific case and example (as suggested earlier) to ground the conversation around real world data.
Why should we move to a specific case?

1) If we're not constrained by reality there's too much wiggle room for anyone to simply justify their own preconceptions.
2) It keeps the discussion focused to avoid the full on angry ideology rants that a few people have gone into.
3) It makes the standards for evidence clear.

If you agree I can find a case if you don't want to.
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: This is what it looks like when you realize you've lost the culture war.
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2016, 11:26:51 AM »
SkeptiQueer, (Too much quote blocking so I dropped it.)

I'm really not trying to force your into a corner or feed you a false position.  I'm legitimately attempting to engage with your argument, but nobody on your side seems to think they need to explain themselves or their positions here, as if it's just a given and how dare anyone question the forgone conclusion.  Now please, pick a specific case and example (as suggested earlier) to ground the conversation around real world data.
Why should we move to a specific case?

1) If we're not constrained by reality there's too much wiggle room for anyone to simply justify their own preconceptions.
2) It keeps the discussion focused to avoid the full on angry ideology rants that a few people have gone into.
3) It makes the standards for evidence clear.

If you agree I can find a case if you don't want to.
No, I'm asking what you intend to prove. The existence of cases is surely not in question.
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