Author Topic: Religion.jpg  (Read 35529 times)

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Offline John Albert

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #405 on: May 02, 2019, 10:51:41 AM »
The Norwegian humanist group even offers secular confirmation for the non-religious, or at least anyone who doesn't want to have a confirmation in church.

Is that kind of "Confirmation" an assertion of immutable faith in some belief system like it is for the Catholics, or is it just a ceremony of passage into adulthood?

Online 2397

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #406 on: May 02, 2019, 12:09:28 PM »
Here's an English language thread on reddit about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Norway/comments/1s4rh8/has_anyone_here_done_the_humanistisk_konfirmasjon/

The bit about pretending to be refugees is very different from what I went through with the church, although I also skipped out on some kind of camping event because it wasn't mandatory. Maybe that was their equivalent.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #407 on: May 02, 2019, 04:03:00 PM »
The Norwegian humanist group even offers secular confirmation for the non-religious, or at least anyone who doesn't want to have a confirmation in church.

Is that kind of "Confirmation" an assertion of immutable faith in some belief system like it is for the Catholics, or is it just a ceremony of passage into adulthood?

There is no need to write confirmation within quotes, as they actually call it that themselves (Humanistisk konfirmasjon).

Check out 2397:s link, and also what the Norwegian Humanist Association write about their ceremonies, including the confirmation, in English, on their website: Humanist ceremonies

Quote
Confirmation (coming of age)

A Humanist confirmation consists of a course in life stance and ethics, finalized with a formal ceremony. All young people (normally at 14-15 years of age) may choose a Humanist confirmation, regardless of their own or their parents' beliefs.

The confirmation course encourages independent thinking and reflection on ethical issues. The main topics of the course are humanism, human rights and critical thinking. All participants are encouraged to play an active part and take a critical look at their own and others' perspectives.

The course is concluded with a formal ceremony for the participants, with family and friends as guests. The ceremony includes cultural elements, such as music and poetry readings, and a speech addressed to the confirmands. All participants are presented by name and receive a diploma.

As they write, anyone can do it, regardless of belief, and from what I understand, there is no requirement or even expectation that you become a humanist or anything else by going through the ceremony.
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Offline John Albert

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #408 on: May 03, 2019, 11:52:47 AM »
I guess I still don't understand why "Humanist Confirmation" is even a thing. It seems a bit unethical to pressure an adolescent into publicly asserting their commitment to some ideology.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #409 on: May 03, 2019, 02:15:58 PM »
I totally agree with you. Children and adolescents should be taught skeptical and critical thinking, not commitment to any ideology. As the old adage say, teach them how to think, not what to think.

As for why it is a thing at all, from what I understand it is because confirmation is a big social event in Norwegian culture, and there is pressure from the older generations that the younger should be confirmed. So the humanist confirmation is a non-religious alternative. They have been going on since the 1950s. 2397 might know more.

It would be interesting to see statistics from Norway how large percentages choose Christian confirmation, humanist confirmation, or no confirmation at all.
"I appear as a skeptic, who believes that doubt is the great engine, the great fuel, of all inquiry, all discovery, and all innovation" - Christopher Hitchens

Online 2397

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #410 on: May 03, 2019, 04:22:11 PM »
I guess I still don't understand why "Humanist Confirmation" is even a thing. It seems a bit unethical to pressure an adolescent into publicly asserting their commitment to some ideology.

Maybe what you're not picturing is how common Christian confirmation has been historically and still is, and how integrated it has been.

It's not something that a minority does that's confined to religious facilities. I had confirmation classes at school, and IIRC it was during school hours, so we were exempt from whatever else was on at the time. Which apparently is still going on in some cases, because here's a 2016 article by the humanist association complaining about it. It's not supposed happen anymore, as we're very slowly moving towards being a fully secular society. We had a state church until 2012, when a lot of related laws were changed.

I agree with you, but I wouldn't point to the problem being the ones offering alternatives, as they're emphasizing that you don't have to be a humanist to do humanist confirmation. Without humanist confirmation, there's Church of Norway, Free Church, or Pentecostal, and the last two only have a presence in some locations. In my class it was all Church of Norway (state church at the time) or humanist. In 2015, 62% of those turning 15 were confirmed in Church of Norway, a historic low.

18.6% did humanist confirmation in 2018. There are also since 2006 "holistic" and "academic" confirmations, which I don't know much about, but they are apparently why church confirmation numbers are much lower in Oslo (the share of immigrants is also higher). In Oslo in 2014, 32% were confirmed in "the church", implied Church of Norway.

I'm not finding stats on how many don't get confirmed, which is probably because the sources are the entities that perform confirmations, and no one's combined the stats.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 04:45:57 PM by 2397 »

Offline John Albert

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #411 on: May 03, 2019, 08:29:12 PM »
Thanks for the clarification. Prior to this conversation I'd been completely oblivious that this particular sacrament had become so culturally ingrained in that part of the world.

I guess it's rather typical as a rite of passage, to have a young person make an unequivocal commitment to an approved set of community values. And if religious values are the traditional norm, it's also good that a secular alternative is available.


I agree with you, but I wouldn't point to the problem being the ones offering alternatives

I didn't mean to criticize the point of offering an alternative. If your culture must have something like a Confirmation ceremony, then at least the options should be as unlimited as possible.

But I'm just a bit sour on the whole proposition of expecting a young person to publicly commit to a set ideology, whatever that may be. Even if the ideology that they're pledging right now might seem ideal to their young mind at this point in time, there's also a good chance that the kid might go on to discover a better one at some point in the future. Or an even better scenario would be that they go on to pioneer some new, even better social paradigm.

But my concern is that making such a commitment at such a young age might tend to discourage further philosophical questioning and examination. I feel that's exactly the reason why the Church invented the sacrament in the first place, and why it's not such a good thing.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 05:19:18 AM by John Albert »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #412 on: May 04, 2019, 05:14:53 PM »
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #413 on: May 06, 2019, 12:36:41 AM »
I would say it's just about as important as infant baptism is, which could be very important or not important at all, depending on your perspective.

Confirmation is one of the seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church. They're kind of a big deal. Baptism, Confirmation and the Eucharist are all important to initiate someone into the Church. The other four are Reconciliation and Penance (Confession), Anointing the Sick (Last Rites), Matrimony and Holy Orders. All Catholics are expected to receive these sacraments - although obviously you can't be married and be a priest.
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #414 on: May 06, 2019, 11:27:44 AM »
True in the Orthodox Church confirmation happens directly after the baptism.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline Morvis13

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #415 on: May 15, 2019, 09:43:25 PM »
Murphy's Law: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #416 on: May 15, 2019, 10:02:47 PM »
I know I've had this discussion, either here on at The Other Place, about what constitutes a "truck". In Australia you don't call it a truck if you can drive it with a regular Class C driver's license, which covers vehicles up to 4.5 tonnes GVM (~5 tons American).

That there is a truck.
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Online CarbShark

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #417 on: May 15, 2019, 10:45:32 PM »
That was here. We had the same discussion about knives “you call that a knife?”


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Offline werecow

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #418 on: May 16, 2019, 08:22:31 AM »
That was here. We had the same discussion about knives “you call that a knife?”



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Offline werecow

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Re: Religion.jpg
« Reply #419 on: May 16, 2019, 08:44:37 AM »

 

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