Author Topic: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...  (Read 2564 times)

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Offline Noisy Rhysling

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2017, 10:43:22 AM »

A better analogy would be if your city was so overrun by dogs that packs of them were killing and eating all the people and all the other wildlife.
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2017, 01:59:08 PM »
It would be amazing if they knocked us down to 10%, took off and then a few years later a planet killer asteroid finished off the rest of the species.   :laugh:

Also, if they can space travel and are benevolent, why not just use technology to help us out of our messes instead of destroying us? When I run low on dog food I don't kill one of my dogs to sustain the other two, I use my technology to obtain more for everyone.

Poor analogy. We are not running low on food for lack of technology to produce food. We are overpopulating at an unsustainable rate and destroying other species wholesale as we are altering the climate in a way that will impact catastrophically on our ability to produce food.

A better analogy would be if your city was so overrun by dogs that packs of them were killing and eating all the people and all the other wildlife.
That's actually a terrible analogy. If we were zombies, yes that would work, but we use technology to minimize the land we use and fatten the animals we raise. Why couldn't those practices be improved? I also seem to recall that once healthcare improves, poverty lessens (scarcity in all forms), and education increases the birth rate approaches zero. In fact it is falling. So you think a highly intelligent species that has an interest in saving ALL forms of life just will arbitrarily want to eliminate one form of life instead of assisting it?
I mean, that fits the worldview you constantly express here about humanity, but I highly doubt aliens would think of floundering, highly (debatable) intelligent apes the same as rabid dogs.
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Offline Billzbub

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2017, 04:50:43 PM »
You should watch Utopia from BBC.

You make a persuasive argument.  I will attempt this.

Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2017, 05:13:50 PM »
You should watch Utopia from BBC.

You make a persuasive argument.  I will attempt this.
They've had Italian subtitled episodes on youtube in the past. I had to torrent as there is no other way to see them stateside- unless it has changed. It's a terrifying and wonderfully quirky/complex show.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2017, 05:22:26 PM »
It would be amazing if they knocked us down to 10%, took off and then a few years later a planet killer asteroid finished off the rest of the species.   :laugh:

Also, if they can space travel and are benevolent, why not just use technology to help us out of our messes instead of destroying us? When I run low on dog food I don't kill one of my dogs to sustain the other two, I use my technology to obtain more for everyone.

Poor analogy. We are not running low on food for lack of technology to produce food. We are overpopulating at an unsustainable rate and destroying other species wholesale as we are altering the climate in a way that will impact catastrophically on our ability to produce food.

A better analogy would be if your city was so overrun by dogs that packs of them were killing and eating all the people and all the other wildlife.
That's actually a terrible analogy. If we were zombies, yes that would work, but we use technology to minimize the land we use and fatten the animals we raise. Why couldn't those practices be improved? I also seem to recall that once healthcare improves, poverty lessens (scarcity in all forms), and education increases the birth rate approaches zero. In fact it is falling. So you think a highly intelligent species that has an interest in saving ALL forms of life just will arbitrarily want to eliminate one form of life instead of assisting it?
I mean, that fits the worldview you constantly express here about humanity, but I highly doubt aliens would think of floundering, highly (debatable) intelligent apes the same as rabid dogs.

Why do people keep insisting that I'm advocating eliminating the human race?????????????????????????????

I'm not saying the benevolent aliens would eliminate humanity. I'm saying they would cull our numbers to save the race, just as we do with, e.g., deer, when their numbers increase beyond the carrying capacity of the land they're on.
Daniel
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2017, 05:33:48 PM »
It would be amazing if they knocked us down to 10%, took off and then a few years later a planet killer asteroid finished off the rest of the species.   :laugh:

Also, if they can space travel and are benevolent, why not just use technology to help us out of our messes instead of destroying us? When I run low on dog food I don't kill one of my dogs to sustain the other two, I use my technology to obtain more for everyone.

Poor analogy. We are not running low on food for lack of technology to produce food. We are overpopulating at an unsustainable rate and destroying other species wholesale as we are altering the climate in a way that will impact catastrophically on our ability to produce food.

A better analogy would be if your city was so overrun by dogs that packs of them were killing and eating all the people and all the other wildlife.
That's actually a terrible analogy. If we were zombies, yes that would work, but we use technology to minimize the land we use and fatten the animals we raise. Why couldn't those practices be improved? I also seem to recall that once healthcare improves, poverty lessens (scarcity in all forms), and education increases the birth rate approaches zero. In fact it is falling. So you think a highly intelligent species that has an interest in saving ALL forms of life just will arbitrarily want to eliminate one form of life instead of assisting it?
I mean, that fits the worldview you constantly express here about humanity, but I highly doubt aliens would think of floundering, highly (debatable) intelligent apes the same as rabid dogs.

Why do people keep insisting that I'm advocating eliminating the human race?????????????????????????????

I'm not saying the benevolent aliens would eliminate humanity. I'm saying they would cull our numbers to save the race, just as we do with, e.g., deer, when their numbers increase beyond the carrying capacity of the land they're on.
Sorry, I overstated your position, but I don't think it logically follows any better. Take cats and dogs as an example. We do cull the excess populations, but we also sterilize them to control numbers. They could conceivably sterilize some of the population, but the other option cats and dogs don't have is the ability to self regulate. If it follows all biology expands to fill its niche and keeps pushing, let's assume aliens would have met the same challenges and overcome them. We seem to have the capacity to make even further technological leaps in the future, whereas cats and dogs not so much. How is it more logical they slaughter us than assist us? You would also have to assume that they haven't ever witnessed what happens when you alter a biosphere from the outside. If they arbitrarily cut us down to a few hundred million and split, and then a virus pops up, we suddenly have far less biodiversity in our species and are more susceptible to disease. Not to mention the technological setback we will face due to less industry and general brainpower, and then the entire cycle starts all over again and they come back in what? Another 200 years to cut back the population again, only this time we'll be ready...  :laugh:
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2017, 09:48:08 AM »
I'm assuming the aliens would view humans as just another species, not special in any way. They'd have no concern about individual humans. They'd just want to preserve the species. We control deer populations by issuing hunting licenses. We want to preserve the species, but most people have no concern for the individual deer that get slaughtered to control the numbers for the "good" of the population. I expect that space aliens would (at best) view us as we view deer.
Daniel
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2017, 02:14:18 PM »
I'm assuming the aliens would view humans as just another species, not special in any way. They'd have no concern about individual humans. They'd just want to preserve the species. We control deer populations by issuing hunting licenses. We want to preserve the species, but most people have no concern for the individual deer that get slaughtered to control the numbers for the "good" of the population. I expect that space aliens would (at best) view us as we view deer.
Huh, well I guess we're all making assumptions so yours isn't any less or more valid, but if we are anywhere near a singularity and biological enhancement with computing power we are about to evolve into a space faring species in the next century. I would assume most space faring aliens have gone through a similar transformation with technology and would recognize the difference between humans and deer.

Now if they're not benevolent we may be seen as competition and dangerous and that might be the end of us...
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2017, 05:31:13 PM »
I'm assuming the aliens would view humans as just another species, not special in any way. They'd have no concern about individual humans. They'd just want to preserve the species. We control deer populations by issuing hunting licenses. We want to preserve the species, but most people have no concern for the individual deer that get slaughtered to control the numbers for the "good" of the population. I expect that space aliens would (at best) view us as we view deer.
Huh, well I guess we're all making assumptions so yours isn't any less or more valid, but if we are anywhere near a singularity and biological enhancement with computing power we are about to evolve into a space faring species in the next century. I would assume most space faring aliens have gone through a similar transformation with technology and would recognize the difference between humans and deer.

Now if they're not benevolent we may be seen as competition and dangerous and that might be the end of us...

Of course it's all speculation, because we only know of one planet with life so far, and only one species that has developed technological civilizations. It's no secret that I hold the opinion that humans will never get beyond our solar system (distances and costs are too great) and that space aliens will never come here (same reasons).

I've also made no secret of the fact that I regard the human race as analogous to a cancer within the "organism" of the biosphere, and that our survival will depend, in part, on limiting our numbers. I suspect that even our present numbers may be beyond the long-term carrying capacity of the planet, but this is a suspicion, not a firm opinion.

I would also love to meet a space alien, in much the same way that I'd love to see a mountain lion while hiking: It seems like it would be really cool, but would probably be very dangerous and possibly fatal.
Daniel
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Offline Billzbub

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2017, 12:08:41 PM »
You should watch Utopia from BBC.

You make a persuasive argument.  I will attempt this.
They've had Italian subtitled episodes on youtube in the past. I had to torrent as there is no other way to see them stateside- unless it has changed. It's a terrifying and wonderfully quirky/complex show.

Youtube has the original episodes now without subtitles.  Episodes 1 and 2 were amazing.  Thanks for this.

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2017, 12:51:16 PM »
If they were really benevolent you would think they would help humanity out through technology by helping us learn how to terraform other planets, create ships to transport us to other worlds, etc. to cut down on numbers. I really hope that they wouldn't go around to planets that they find and start killing off dominate species. I hope that if humans gain the ability to travel to other planets that we don't start behaving and deciding such things for planets.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2017, 02:11:46 PM »
If they were really benevolent you would think they would help humanity out through technology by helping us learn how to terraform other planets, create ships to transport us to other worlds, etc. to cut down on numbers. I really hope that they wouldn't go around to planets that they find and start killing off dominate species. I hope that if humans gain the ability to travel to other planets that we don't start behaving and deciding such things for planets.

Benevolent doesn't necessarily mean that they share our opinion of our own importance. Nor does it mean that they would enable us to do to other planets what Europeans have done to other continents. I think of it as meaning that they would not want to destroy our ecosystem in order to replace it with their own. That they would intervene in ways likely to prevent one species from destroying all the rest. At present, humans are doing our best to destroy all the rest. Benevolent space aliens are likely to be benevolent toward the whole ecosystem, not just toward the one species that is using its advantages to exterminate all the others.

I guess I'm in the minority in believing that our superior intellect does not give us the right to run roughshod over all the species we regard as having inferior intellect.
Daniel
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Offline amysrevenge

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2017, 02:16:15 PM »
Nah bud, my main problem is that I don't think your conclusion follows from your premises.  I don't agree with your premises, but even given that I did, I don't come to the same conclusion about what your benevolent aliens would do.
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2017, 02:26:38 PM »
If they were really benevolent you would think they would help humanity out through technology by helping us learn how to terraform other planets, create ships to transport us to other worlds, etc. to cut down on numbers. I really hope that they wouldn't go around to planets that they find and start killing off dominate species. I hope that if humans gain the ability to travel to other planets that we don't start behaving and deciding such things for planets.

Benevolent doesn't necessarily mean that they share our opinion of our own importance. Nor does it mean that they would enable us to do to other planets what Europeans have done to other continents. I think of it as meaning that they would not want to destroy our ecosystem in order to replace it with their own. That they would intervene in ways likely to prevent one species from destroying all the rest. At present, humans are doing our best to destroy all the rest. Benevolent space aliens are likely to be benevolent toward the whole ecosystem, not just toward the one species that is using its advantages to exterminate all the others.

I guess I'm in the minority in believing that our superior intellect does not give us the right to run roughshod over all the species we regard as having inferior intellect.
Probably not in the minority on this forum, though out in the world of "God made everything for us monkies" you probably would be in the minority. You seem to be predisposed to the idea that the only way benevolent species would want to help is by genocide. Remind me not to vote you in as representative to another planet filled with life.  :P
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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: If advanced, benevolent space aliens visited Earth...
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2017, 03:57:09 PM »

Benevolent doesn't necessarily mean that they share our opinion of our own importance. Nor does it mean that they would enable us to do to other planets what Europeans have done to other continents. I think of it as meaning that they would not want to destroy our ecosystem in order to replace it with their own. That they would intervene in ways likely to prevent one species from destroying all the rest. At present, humans are doing our best to destroy all the rest. Benevolent space aliens are likely to be benevolent toward the whole ecosystem, not just toward the one species that is using its advantages to exterminate all the others.

I guess I'm in the minority in believing that our superior intellect does not give us the right to run roughshod over all the species we regard as having inferior intellect.

I imply no importance if I did I would think that they would treat humans different than any other species. If we as humans went to another plant and we noticed one plant that was overgrowing the world and killing off all other plants I wouldn't want us to cull that plant. I would want us to allow the natural order of things to take effect. It would be fascinating to watch. Would a small portion of species survive and then evolve under the pressure to thrive? Could it be a case of Saturn's children? I don't know.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

 

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