Author Topic: Climate Change Catchment Thread  (Read 35046 times)

Gigabyte and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2586
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #540 on: May 13, 2019, 02:48:00 PM »
As Soldier of Fortran (and many climate scientists) have pointed out, planting trees is not a solution.  Covering the Great Plains with bison, wolves and cougars might help.  That's where a large part of that carbon that is in the atmosphere came from.

It's a solution, if not the solution. Plant bison, whatever works.

Offline John Albert

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5943
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #541 on: May 13, 2019, 03:46:21 PM »
As Soldier of Fortran (and many climate scientists) have pointed out, planting trees is not a solution.  Covering the Great Plains with bison, wolves and cougars might help.  That's where a large part of that carbon that is in the atmosphere came from.

Nonsense. Your understanding of carbon sequestration is totally upside down.

I appreciate how much you love your lifestyle, but cattle ranching is part of the problem, not the solution.

Even if we could replenish those species in the Great Plains, the best that could do is temporarily restore that biome to some extent, at least until the ranchers and hunters massacre them again. Even if we could manage to institute strict wildlife protection laws, it's only a matter of decades before those indigenous species would die off and/or migrate north into cooler climes.

Restoring bison, wolves and cougars will do nothing to fix the problem of climate change, because the carbon in the atmosphere did not come from bison, wolves and cougars.

The carbon in the atmosphere came from under the ground, where it had lain in the form of coal and petroleum oil for hundreds of millions of years since the Carboniferous Period, until we started digging it up and burning it for fuel.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9110
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #542 on: May 13, 2019, 04:49:30 PM »
As Soldier of Fortran (and many climate scientists) have pointed out, planting trees is not a solution.

I wouldn't go that far.

You'd need to play to the self-replacing aspect of trees:
  • Once forested, leave it forested. Bonus: Foments sequestration into soils (this is a big one).
  • Select trees suited to upcoming weather.  There's failure modes to avoid.
That being said, the framing on Climate Change needs some work.  Something I myself, others and media do all the time is frame things in terms of 'the' solution -- as though we'll find 'a' way to 'fix' this.  We're only ever going to have adaptation and mitigation strategies composed of many smaller elements. 

Maybe in a few hundred years, if we're lucky, we'll be able to keep atmospheric CO2 at a fixed 320PPM or something courtesy of weather control infrastructure or something. But until then, it's just adaptation/mitigation strategies built out of many parts.
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9110
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #543 on: May 13, 2019, 05:11:44 PM »
That said, wildlife and soils do deserve attention. No disagreement there.

Article: Soil as Carbon Storehouse: New Weapon in Climate Fight?
From: Yale Environment 360
Date: 2014 MAR 04

Quote
In the 19th century, as land-hungry pioneers steered their wagon trains westward across the United States, they encountered a vast landscape of towering grasses that nurtured deep, fertile soils.

Today, just 3 percent of North America’s tallgrass prairie remains. Its disappearance has had a dramatic impact on the landscape and ecology of the U.S., but a key consequence of that transformation has largely been overlooked: a massive loss of soil carbon into the atmosphere. The importance of soil carbon — how it is leached from the earth and how that process can be reversed — is the subject of intensifying scientific investigation, with important implications for the effort to slow the rapid rise of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

According to Rattan Lal, director of Ohio State University’s Carbon Management and Sequestration Center, the world’s cultivated soils have lost between 50 and 70 percent of their original carbon stock, much of which has oxidized upon exposure to air to become CO2. Now, armed with rapidly expanding knowledge about carbon sequestration in soils, researchers are studying how land restoration programs in places like the former North American prairie, the North China Plain, and even the parched interior of Australia might help put carbon back into the soil.

Absent carbon and critical microbes, soil becomes mere dirt, a process of deterioration that’s been rampant around the globe. Many scientists say that regenerative agricultural practices can turn back the carbon clock, reducing atmospheric CO2 while also boosting soil productivity and increasing resilience to floods and drought. Such regenerative techniques include planting fields year-round in crops or other cover, and agroforestry that combines crops, trees, and animal husbandry.

Recognition of the vital role played by soil carbon could mark an important if subtle shift in the discussion about global warming, which has been heavily focused on curbing emissions of fossil fuels. But a look at soil brings a sharper focus on potential carbon sinks. Reducing emissions is crucial, but soil carbon sequestration needs to be part of the picture as well, says Lal. The top priorities, he says, are restoring degraded and eroded lands, as well as avoiding deforestation and the farming of peatlands, which are a major reservoir of carbon and are easily decomposed upon drainage and cultivation.

...

Scientists say that more carbon resides in soil than in the atmosphere and all plant life combined; there are 2,500 billion tons of carbon in soil, compared with 800 billion tons in the atmosphere and 560 billion tons in plant and animal life. And compared to many proposed geoengineering fixes, storing carbon in soil is simple: It’s a matter of returning carbon where it belongs.

Through photosynthesis, a plant draws carbon out of the air to form carbon compounds. What the plant doesn’t need for growth is exuded through the roots to feed soil organisms, whereby the carbon is humified, or rendered stable. Carbon is the main component of soil organic matter and helps give soil its water-retention capacity, its structure, and its fertility. According to Lal, some pools of carbon housed in soil aggregates are so stable that they can last thousands of years. This is in contrast to “active” soil carbon, which resides in topsoil and is in continual flux between microbial hosts and the atmosphere.

“If we treat soil carbon as a renewable resource, we can change the dynamics,” says Goreau. “When we have erosion, we lose soil, which carries with it organic carbon, into waterways. When soil is exposed, it oxidizes, essentially burning the soil carbon. We can take an alternate trajectory.”

...

Even at our current level of knowledge, many see great potential for storing carbon in soil. Lal of Ohio State says that restoring soils of degraded and desertified ecosystems has the potential to store in world soils an additional 1 billion to 3 billion tons of carbon annually, equivalent to roughly 3.5 billion to 11 billion tons of CO2 emissions. (Annual CO2 emissions from fossil fuel burning are roughly 32 billion tons.)

Many call Lal’s carbon soil storage figures low. This could reflect the fact that soil carbon is generally measured in the top 15 to 30 centimeters, whereas soil at depth may store carbon at much higher rates. For example, in land with deep-rooted grasses the soil can go down five meters or more. Research by Australian and British scientists published last year in the journal Plant and Soil examined soils in five southwestern Australia sites at depths as great as nearly 40 meters. These findings add impetus to explore strategies such as working with deep-rooted perennial grasses to secure carbon at depth.

Those who champion soil carbon for climate mitigation frequently look to grasslands, which cover more than a quarter of the world’s land. According to the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization, grasslands also hold 20 percent of the world’s soil carbon stock. Much of this land is degraded, as evidenced in the U.S. Great Plains and places like northern Mexico, Africa’s Sahel, and Mongolia.

...

Emphasized excerpt:
Quote
Seth Itzkan — founder of Massachusetts-based Planet-TECH Associates, a consulting firm specializing in restoration ecology — advocates Holistic Planned Grazing (HPG), a model developed by Zimbabwean wildlife biologist Allan Savory. In this practice, livestock are managed as a tool for large-scale land restoration, mimicking the herding and grazing patterns of wild ruminants that coevolved with grassland ecosystems. Animals are moved so that no plants are overgrazed, and grazing stimulates biological activity in the soil. Their waste adds fertility, and as they move in a herd their trampling aerates soil, presses in seeds, and pushes down dead plant matter so it can be acted upon by soil microorganisms. All of this generates soil carbon, plant carbon, and water retention. Savory says HPG doesn’t require more land — in fact it generally supports greater animal density — so it can be applied wherever livestock are raised.

Reminder:  Our current M.O. gives us worldwide collapse of agriculture outputs in <60 years due to soil degredation.

Article: How many harvests are left in your soil?
From: Farmer's Weekly
Date: 2017 SEPT 8

Quote
Speaking at a World Soil Day event in 2016, Maria-Helena Semedo, deputy director-general of natural resources at the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization, said that if current soil degradation rates were not reversed, all the world’s topsoil could be gone within 60 years.

This means that there may only be 60 or so harvests left to reap from the world’s soil. She says some of the main causes of soil destruction include chemical-heavy farming techniques, deforestation, which increases erosion, and global warming.

Estimates published by the International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements, suggest that the world is losing roughly 20ha of topsoil every minute, mostly due to intensive farming.

In a recent interview with UK newspaper, The Independent, Prof Raj Patel, research professor at the University of Texas in Austin, said that industrial agriculture was bringing about the mass extinction of life on Earth.

...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 05:29:36 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9110
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #544 on: May 13, 2019, 05:29:09 PM »
An impatient Bill Nye.

If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Nacreous

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5741
  • Some sort of anthropoid ape, as best we can tell.
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #545 on: May 13, 2019, 08:45:01 PM »
That said, wildlife and soils do deserve attention. No disagreement there....

Indeed, but beware of woo in the moo.  One recent soil regeneration scheme claims we can cattle our way to CO2 mitigation.  I don’t think so.  See:

Allan Savory's Holistic Management Theory Falls Short on Science

https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2017-2-march-april/feature/allan-savory-says-more-cows-land-will-reverse-climate-change

And

All Sizzle and No Steak
Why Allan Savory’s TED talk about how cattle can reverse global warming is dead wrong.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/04/allan-savorys-ted-talk-is-wrong-and-the-benefits-of-holistic-grazing-have-been-debunked.html
"The future has been here for awhile; it's just not available to everyone."
-some guy at MIT

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9110
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #546 on: May 13, 2019, 11:12:54 PM »
Shit, good catch!  I actually saw that TED Talk but never the rebuttal.
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9110
  • Cache rules everything around me.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 09:26:27 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9110
  • Cache rules everything around me.
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #548 on: May 16, 2019, 05:13:55 PM »
https://twitter.com/mikarantane/status/1127188356608212992

29C = ~84F

edit, Clarification: The map is indeed colored for temperature anomaly (+20C) but the temperature is 29C in the red-text labeled area.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 05:16:18 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
If global warming is real then how come I just felt this chill down my spine?

Offline 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2586
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #549 on: May 16, 2019, 05:53:34 PM »
I'm not a fan of drones being everywhere, but I hope that with technological advances we can at least get better at monitoring forests and responding to fires early.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4776
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #550 on: May 20, 2019, 02:33:12 PM »
As Soldier of Fortran (and many climate scientists) have pointed out, planting trees is not a solution.  Covering the Great Plains with bison, wolves and cougars might help.  That's where a large part of that carbon that is in the atmosphere came from.

It's a solution, if not the solution. Plant bison, whatever works.

I agree. It is part of the solution, not the single magic bullet. Forests also have other benefits apart from capturing carbon.
"I appear as a skeptic, who believes that doubt is the great engine, the great fuel, of all inquiry, all discovery, and all innovation" - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4776
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #551 on: May 21, 2019, 03:14:11 PM »
Quote
Why the Guardian is changing the language it uses about the environment

From now, house style guide recommends terms such as ‘climate crisis’ and ‘global heating’

The Guardian has updated its style guide to introduce terms that more accurately describe the environmental crises facing the world.

Instead of “climate change” the preferred terms are “climate emergency, crisis or breakdown” and “global heating” is favoured over “global warming”, although the original terms are not banned.

“We want to ensure that we are being scientifically precise, while also communicating clearly with readers on this very important issue,” said the editor-in-chief, Katharine Viner. “The phrase ‘climate change’, for example, sounds rather passive and gentle when what scientists are talking about is a catastrophe for humanity.”

“Increasingly, climate scientists and organisations from the UN to the Met Office are changing their terminology, and using stronger language to describe the situation we’re in,” she said.
"I appear as a skeptic, who believes that doubt is the great engine, the great fuel, of all inquiry, all discovery, and all innovation" - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Nacreous

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5741
  • Some sort of anthropoid ape, as best we can tell.
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #552 on: May 22, 2019, 07:17:42 PM »
Quote
Why the Guardian is changing the language it uses about the environment

From now, house style guide recommends terms such as ‘climate crisis’ and ‘global heating’

The Guardian has updated its style guide to introduce terms that more accurately describe the environmental crises facing the world.

Instead of “climate change” the preferred terms are “climate emergency, crisis or breakdown” and “global heating” is favoured over “global warming”, although the original terms are not banned.

“We want to ensure that we are being scientifically precise, while also communicating clearly with readers on this very important issue,” said the editor-in-chief, Katharine Viner. “The phrase ‘climate change’, for example, sounds rather passive and gentle when what scientists are talking about is a catastrophe for humanity.”

“Increasingly, climate scientists and organisations from the UN to the Met Office are changing their terminology, and using stronger language to describe the situation we’re in,” she said.
This will play into the hands of the denialist propaganda mills, which will doubtless spin it as an attempt by "alarmists" to change the story.  They will simply tack it onto their old lie about "global warming" being dropped in favor of "climate change" to give the whole thing new life.  Expect to see it soon wherever climateball is played.
"The future has been here for awhile; it's just not available to everyone."
-some guy at MIT

Offline werecow

  • Cryptobovinologist
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4792
  • mooh
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #553 on: May 23, 2019, 04:05:03 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised... That's why I tend to prefer "contrarians" over "deniers".
Mooohn!

Offline 2397

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 2586
Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #554 on: May 23, 2019, 05:37:36 AM »
Denial is a financial investment, the rest is ignorance. With occasional trolling from people who just don't care.

 

personate-rain
personate-rain