Author Topic: Climate Change Catchment Thread  (Read 59063 times)

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Offline 2397

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1125 on: December 06, 2019, 06:50:34 AM »
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A teen volunteer with the Rural Fire Service in New South Wales has been charged after allegedly lighting seven fires in the Bega Valley area.

The volunteer firefighter, 19, allegedly lit a fire on Tuesday afternoon next to the Bega river, left the area and returned to fight the fire for the RFS.

He was arrested at a Tarraganda fire shed within two hours of the fire.

The man was charged with causing the fire as well as six others since 17 October
theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/27/teenage-volunteer-firefighter-charged-with-arson-alleged-to-have-lit-seven-nsw-bushfires

It's not like there's a shortage of fires for them to fight. Just be a firefighter and you can be a hero, rather than potentially a murderer.

Offline gmalivuk

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1126 on: December 06, 2019, 08:23:46 AM »
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline stands2reason

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1127 on: December 06, 2019, 10:57:15 AM »
Quote
A teen volunteer with the Rural Fire Service in New South Wales has been charged after allegedly lighting seven fires in the Bega Valley area.

The volunteer firefighter, 19, allegedly lit a fire on Tuesday afternoon next to the Bega river, left the area and returned to fight the fire for the RFS.

He was arrested at a Tarraganda fire shed within two hours of the fire.

The man was charged with causing the fire as well as six others since 17 October
theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/27/teenage-volunteer-firefighter-charged-with-arson-alleged-to-have-lit-seven-nsw-bushfires

It was a pleasure to burn...

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1128 on: December 06, 2019, 03:13:44 PM »
More 'early rumblings' from Southern Florida.

Article: At $60 million a mile, the Keys may abandon some roads to sea rise rather than raise them
From: Miami Herald
Date: 2019 DEC 05

Quote
...

The county has 314 miles of road to care for — or choose to abandon. Half of them are susceptible to sea rise in the next 20 years. The cost to keep them dry has county government officials openly questioning whether the math is worth it.

“Are we really going to spend $128 million to elevate three miles of road where 30 people live? It’s not up to me, but I don’t think so,” said Rhonda Haag, Monroe County’s head of resilience.

In cases where the costs of flood-proofing the roads overcome the benefit of keeping communities dry, Monroe officials said, the answer is buying out homes.

“It’s that word nobody likes to use — retreat,” said Monroe County Administrator Roman Gastesi. “We’re going to have to retreat from some areas, and that’s going to be costly.”

...

That staggering price for short stretches of road is due to everything that goes to support the road: pumps to drain the water, stations to clean it and injection wells to shove it back underground. It doesn’t include costs to harmonize the high roads with neighboring homes (like Miami Beach’s storm drains on private properties), acquiring property alongside the road or the legal fees the county may face.

And those legal fees might be pretty steep. Few places around the country have stopped servicing roads because of climate change, and it could lead to a legal backlash from homeowners who can no longer access their homes.

“Policy-wise, how do you tell somebody you’re not going to build the road to their home?” Gastesi wondered aloud during the conference. “And what do we do? Do we buy them out? Is it eminent domain? Is it voluntary?”

Those are questions the Keys is going to have to answer fast. Buyouts have already begun in the Keys.

This week, Florida announced the Keys would receive more than $20 million — twice as much as the state originally set aside for the region — to buy out homes damaged by Hurricane Irma and demolish them. The Keys prioritized buyouts for homes that were most at risk of sea rise.

...

It’s unclear what the state’s role will be in managing retreat from the Keys, or if the administration is even considering a broader plan or additional funding.

Gov. Ron DeSantis was scheduled to speak at the climate conference but dropped out last minute with no explanation. His chief resilience officer, Julia Nesheiwat, gave a brief speech about the state’s response to climate change. In it, she talked about how the bill for seawalls alone in Monroe County “could cost hundreds of millions, making it too costly to really be a realistic solution for the future.”

The governor’s office declined to make her available for an interview about the state’s strategy on retreat and buyouts, but when asked by a reporter at a panel if her state resiliency plan will involve managed retreat, she called it a sensitive topic.

“I believe it’s a local decision. I rely on the mayors and the local officials on that,” she said. [...]


But that’s just a fraction of the demand. Sixty-one people signed up to sell their homes initially, and 10 more people are on a waiting list.


Commentary on how state and local government are handling sea-level rise aside, the estimates looks weird:
Quote
Last month, the Keys asked the state for $150 million to address sea level rise. Newly released cost estimates show the county could blow that entire amount on a few miles of road elevation.

Elevating less than three miles of Old State Road 4A on Sugarloaf Key to withstand sea rise and king tide by 2025 could cost $75 million, Monroe’s head of resilience revealed at a sea level rise conference in Key West on Wednesday. Elevating for 2045 could cost $128 million. And by 2060, that price tag could soar to $181 million.

...

She also noted that these costs are simply an extrapolation of the price to elevate a third of mile of road in another neighborhood, and she expects them to drop considerably as more calculations are done. But the price tag is still a hurdle for the county.

“Even if it’s half the cost, it’s still extremely high, and it’s hard to justify that cost for 15 properties,” she said. “We have some hard decisions to make.”


...

I mean, imagine you have an estimate for 20 feet of road. There's fixed costs for shipping machinery in and shipping machinery out.  Extrapolate to a mile and congratulations, you've priced in 264 instances of shipping. 

Why are they doing it that way?  Are they juking the figures to backstop their desired policy? 

It wouldn't surprised me.  I know a Floridian who works in county-government and his long-term planning department's basically abandoned the coast. 
... in war the screams are loud and harsh and in peace the wail is so drawn-out we tell ourselves we hear nothing.

Offline Gigabyte

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1129 on: December 07, 2019, 02:14:02 AM »
What a huge load of bullshit
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1130 on: December 07, 2019, 12:31:30 PM »
Which part?

Florida's queued up for major difficulties and it's already started.  Emphasis on southern Florida because of how low and built-up it is.

Some other posts about Florida:
(click to show/hide)


... in war the screams are loud and harsh and in peace the wail is so drawn-out we tell ourselves we hear nothing.

Offline Gigabyte

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1131 on: December 07, 2019, 03:58:36 PM »
Which part?
Almost all of it.  The entire bulk of the "story", and the "solutions", it's all bullshit.  To explain why would take a textbook, maybe several textbooks, and a lot of history, and understanding of what is even being talked about.  These news stories and sound bite arguments are bullshit.

It's quite simply a very complex situation, for all kinds of reasons, none of which are easy to explain, especially to somebody who has never even set foot in the Keys. 

Even the simple problem with Center Lane, Key Largo, would take some effort, to just start the process of understanding what is happening there.  It's like somebody who knows literally nothing about radioactivity, telling you what is wrong with the Bikini atoll, and blaming it on the Krause-Ogle box left behind.   And even worse they want to tell you WHY it is happening, when they don't actually know anything about it at all.

"Bullshit" is about the nicest response one could give.  Trying to explain it is futile.  Even if you spent countless hours and effort trying to educate them, it won't matter at all.  Not even a little.  Because you are dealing with bullshit.  There is no fixing it.

Center lane, and N drive, and S drive, and N Blackwater lane, they are all artificial constructs, literally created "land" about 3 feet above mean sea level there.  On a good day. It's about as unnatural as you can imagine.  The roads, which are mentioned as flooded, are the low areas that drain to the sea.  They are barely above sea level.  But the entire thing is a man made disaster waiting to happen. 

It used to be Mangroves and what they did (the developers, with the consent of the government), was bring in this heavy equipment and just dig out channel and destroy all the native vegetation and life, and create artificial canals and they used the material from the canals to create the "land", using the streets as the storm drains.  It's not just there, this happened all over Florida. 

You can actually see where man came in and created "land", from what was a Mangrove ecosystem there.   They destroyed the very thing that created the land, and what kept the land from washing away in a storm.

The people "suffering" because they might have to drive through salt water to get to and from their million dollar homes, they paid for the destruction of the very system that created and sustained the Keys.  Right next door to the flooded neighborhood are the mangroves.  They are in no danger from sea level changes.  They were growing 11,000 years ago when the sea level was 300 feet lower.  They were growing 6000 years ago when the sea level was 6 feet higher.  They should be growing a million years from now when the planet has gone through another dozen ice age cycles.

They will be growing if global warming raises the oceans by 40 feet.

They will be growing if the ocean drops by a dozen feet.  Mangroves evolved an estimated 700 million years ago, and have been creating land and soil for just as long.  They are ancient and tenacious plants, that survived planetary disasters that nobody can truly imagine.  They were around during the Eemian, when sea levels were far higher than the predicted disastrous levels we might see in a hundred years.

They were around when Florida was 300 feet higher than today.  It's bullshit to try and pin this on a nebulous sea level rise figure. Like so many "global warming/climate change" blame games, it ignores the reality and the real nature of what is going on.  They dredged up the mangrove system (which includes over a hundred animals, as well as countless other organisms), created these artificial canals (for their boats), built million dollar homes 2 feet above sea level, and now want the government to protect them, and to blame everybody in the world for the problem.

It's complete bullshit.

Miami Beach and other coastal areas are even worse.  Don't get me started on the complete and total cluster fuck of development that has gone on there.

When I was a child the coastal dunes were 50, 60 feet high walls of sand and animal and plant life.  They still are in a few protected areas.  They bulldozed them down, destroyed the vegetation, and built right on the shoreline, then cried when nature came along and did what nature has always done.  To blame coastal flooding on climate change is like blaming the worldwide levels of Caesium-137 pollution on climate change.  It's bullshit.



I don't understand some things, but at least I know I don't know

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1132 on: December 07, 2019, 04:29:23 PM »
From: The climate issue

Quote
To understand that context, it is important to understand all the things that climate change is not. It is not the end of the world. Humankind is not poised teetering on the edge of extinction. The planet itself is not in peril. Earth is a tough old thing and will survive. And though much may be lost, most of the wondrous life that makes Earth unique, as far as astronomers can yet tell, will persist.

Climate change is, though, a dire threat to countless people—one that is planetary in scope if not in its absolute stakes. It will displace tens of millions, at the very least; it will disrupt farms on which billions rely; it will dry up wells and water mains; it will flood low-lying places—and, as time goes by, higher-standing ones, too. True, it will also provide some opportunities, at least in the near term. But the longer humanity takes to curb emissions, the greater the dangers and sparser the benefits—and the larger the risk of some truly catastrophic surprises.

As I interpret this, it basically says that while climate change is a serious problem that the world is facing, it is not an existential threat. Human civilization will survive, and much of the world as well. I think this is also pretty much the view of the SGU.

However, some other people, including some people here I think, view it as a much more dangerous problem that will spell the end of human civilization, if not humanity as a whole.

Which perspective is the most reasonable one, and why?
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1133 on: December 07, 2019, 04:51:45 PM »
[...]

Very thorough, thanks!

Reminds me of this other monument to man's hubris.






Article: On the Alabama Coast, the Unluckiest Island in America
From: Yale Environment 360
Date: 2019 SEP 05

Quote

...

Following each big storm, Collier and Dauphin Island homeowners follow a familiar script. First, they plead for disaster aid from the federal government. Then they file claims with the federal flood insurance program. Finally, with tax dollars and insurance payouts in hand, they rebuild in the same dangerous location, assuming it isn’t underwater. That’s what happened after Frederic, and after Georges, Ivan, and Katrina, and is now happening again after Nate.

It is unclear how much federal aid Dauphin Island has received over time. The records are incomplete and don’t go back far enough. But it is at least $100 million and some put the figure as high as $200 million. Crozier told me it could be higher yet. But even the lower estimate works out to about $170,000 for each of the island’s 1,200 year-round residents.

“Dauphin Island, and especially the west end, is a poster child for all of our failed public policies, local, state, and federal,” Crozier said. “Really, it is a case study of schizophrenia. The property owners want to be left alone, except when there is a storm. Then they want the taxpayers to pay for new roads and bridges and sand and [to] help them rebuild.”

...






... in war the screams are loud and harsh and in peace the wail is so drawn-out we tell ourselves we hear nothing.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1134 on: December 07, 2019, 05:13:14 PM »
Which perspective is the most reasonable one, and why?

Paywalled.  What's their analysis?

The range of potential outcomes is fairly broad.  And expected outcome hinges on expected changes in public policy, CCS tech, feedbacks, etc.
... in war the screams are loud and harsh and in peace the wail is so drawn-out we tell ourselves we hear nothing.

Offline SnarlPatrick

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1135 on: December 08, 2019, 04:23:47 AM »
Loling at this interview. None of you are in support of Extinction Rebellion are you?

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Online Rai

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1136 on: December 08, 2019, 05:16:56 AM »
Loling at this interview. None of you are in support of Extinction Rebellion are you?



You are not in support of the brexiteer scumbag Darren Grimes, are you?

And what's up with youse nazis preoccupation with "destroying" people? Oh wait, the answer is already in the question.   :D
Tinkety tonk old fruit & down with the Nazis

Offline SnarlPatrick

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1137 on: December 08, 2019, 05:47:16 AM »
Very pro-Brexit, but not familiar with Darren Grimes in particular. Why do you ask?

Nor do I title these videos. They're titled for clicks, as are videos from most outlets, mainstream ones included.

Gonna answer my question on Extinction Rebellion?
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Online Rai

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1138 on: December 08, 2019, 05:52:58 AM »
Because he is a scumbag who should not be platformed, like all brexiters.

Is there any horrible racist pro-billionaire moment you are not supporting?
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Offline SnarlPatrick

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1139 on: December 08, 2019, 06:00:21 AM »
Who's the billionaire? Who's the racist? Is Andrew Neil pro Brexit? Not really relevant to his interview.

So now you're saying the half of British voters who voted leave should not have a platform. How authoritarian can you get? Unsurprising that you are abusing your position of power here.
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SnarlPatrick, you are a nazi apologist piece of shit. You're a coward who hides behind the internet   ....   and I can only imagine it's a good thing your Jewish ancestors are dead so they don't have to watch you grow into the bigoted nazi creep you've become.

 

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