Author Topic: Climate Change Catchment Thread  (Read 58685 times)

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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1155 on: December 10, 2019, 04:38:39 PM »
Quote
The dark side of the Nordic model

Scandinavian countries may top every ranking on human development, but they are a disaster for the environment.

Scandinavians have it all. Universal public healthcare and education that is the envy of the world. Reasonable working hours with plenty of paid vacation. They have some of the highest levels of happiness on the planet, and top virtually every ranking of human development.   

The Nordic model stands as a clear and compelling contrast to the neoliberal ideology that has strafed the rest of the industrialised world with inequality, ill health and needless poverty. As an antidote to the most destructive aspects of free-market capitalism, the egalitarian social democracies of Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Iceland inspire progressive movements around the world.

These countries are worth celebrating for all they get right. But there is a problem. They are an ecological disaster. 

You might not notice it at first glance. Their air is crisp and fresh. Their parks are free of litter. Waste collection works like a charm. Much of the region is covered in forests. And Scandinavians tend to be environmentally conscientious.

But the data tell a different story. The Nordic countries have some of the highest levels of resource use and CO2 emissions in the world, in consumption-based terms, drastically overshooting safe planetary boundaries.

This was news to me. My general understanding was (is) that while we in the Nordic countries are not good enough when it comes to climate and the environment, we (with the possible exception of Norway) are among the least bad in the world. Certainly not among the worst in the world.

The article refers to an index called the Sustainable Development Index, which does indeed place us at very low positions. However, another index, the Climate Change Performance Index places us at top positions. Both of these indexes take climate into account, yet how can they end up with such different results? Something is fishy here.

I have to say, the relatively medium-ranked China and a top position for oil-exporting Algeria in the Sustainable Development Index seem very strange to me.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Offline Oh Henry

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1156 on: December 10, 2019, 06:42:28 PM »
Even more, he / she seems to be trying to argue that government ownership / control of the islands is the same thing as active maintenance. That is not the case but instead they let nature take its course. They are certain not "Just Fine" and they are not really able to be inhabited by humans.

There does seem to be a tactic among the conservative to claim to site articles but when you actually read through teh articles listed, they don't actually support the conservative position.


I think the last link he posted was actually meant as his primo example of what stupid people believe. But the first article didn't actually support anything he claimed, either.  And the second link is just an amateur collection of information on the geography of Virginia that seemed to be his primary source for reciting the names of the islands.  Weird stuff. 

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Offline gebobs

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1157 on: December 11, 2019, 09:25:47 AM »

I think the last link he posted was actually meant as his primo example of what stupid people believe.

Ahhh...yes, you are right. Derp me.

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1158 on: December 11, 2019, 02:45:43 PM »
Loling at this interview. None of you are in support of Extinction Rebellion are you?



I speak only for myself here:

There are certainly groups that are concerned about climate change that also sneak in goals under that banner that really has nothing to do with climate change. For example, Greenpeace who is an environmental group, but fights about GMOs. And yes, I have seen some far-left individuals sneak their opposition to capitalism/market-economy under the fight to stop climate change.

Climate change is very likely going to be a major political issue during this century. How to stop emissions, how to clean up already caused damage, how to mitigate the effects. It is not really that surprising that groups with other agendas on their point try to ride that wave, especially groups with agendas that have very small public support in the liberal democracies. (To see what I mean, look at political parties in various democracies who want to destroy capitalism/market economy, and then look at their electoral support.)

I don't support such agendas, or attempts at sneaking in such issues in the broader fight against climate change and its effects. However, I very much support the fight against climate change, and I would not a priori dismiss ideas from groups who try to sneak in other agendas as well, if those ideas are any good. Ideas stand and fall on their own merits.

We must be able to work against climate change, and we can do so without having to agree with all others who share that goal on every other issue. In fact, we have to, because we share this world, and will have to live with the consequences.
"I’m a member of no party. I have no ideology. I’m a rationalist. I do what I can in the international struggle between science and reason and the barbarism, superstition and stupidity that’s all around us." - Christopher Hitchens

Online gmalivuk

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1159 on: December 11, 2019, 04:19:58 PM »
If you don't see how a system that values short-term profits over anything else is an impediment to useful progress on climate change, I have to wonder if you've been paying attention to, like, anything.

Even if you disagree with the position that the complete abolition of capitalism is necessary to combat climate change, groups that do hold that position aren't "sneaking it in" to anything.

It's like if I think fundamentalist religion is an impediment to scientific progress, and I say as much when I promote critical thinking, that's not me sneaking in an antitheist agenda to my skepticism.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline Billzbub

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1160 on: December 11, 2019, 04:52:12 PM »
Good point Quetzalcoatl.  I agree with your main point that combatting climate change should be our top priority, and that we may have to hold our noses a bit and agree with good climate change ideas of people and organizations that may not share our other values.  Of course, like everything, there is a continuum with people I totally agree with one one side and people I find abhorrent and disgusting on the other side, and the point along the continuum where I'm willing to say "such-and-such has a good idea" will be different for everyone.  If we all set our point of "I wont work with them" too far to one side, the planet will burn.  If we set the point to far to the other side, we might save the planet but have it not be worth it after all.  In this case, I would err on the side of doing what it takes to prevent the world from burning.

For example, if I had the choice between two politicians, one who was a corporate shill but supported rapid and drastic action on climate change and another who believed that everyone should have access to good health care but could care less about climate change, I would have to support the first even though I would be very torn.  Luckily, most politicians that support rapid and drastic action on climate change have other views that I mostly agree with.

That said, I'm not going to go join Incels for the Environment or anything.
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1161 on: December 11, 2019, 05:15:34 PM »
I have seen some far-left individuals sneak their opposition to capitalism/market-economy under the fight to stop climate change.

I wouldn't call it, "sneaking in."

As a rule set, Capitalism is like a Paperclip Maximizer for profits. 

If you think that --
  • we require a hard pivot and
  • we cannot achieve this through technological innovation and markets because
  • we have only a few decades for aforementioned pivot
-- then anti-capitalism may be a natural conclusion.
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Offline CookieMustard

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1162 on: December 11, 2019, 06:41:19 PM »
If you don't see how a system that values short-term profits over anything else is an impediment to useful progress on climate change....

It's like if I think fundamentalist religion is an impediment to scientific progress, and I say as much when I promote critical thinking, that's not me sneaking in an antitheist agenda to my skepticism.

The first sentence is an example the argument from ignorance fallacy. More exactly it is the variation sometimes called the argument from self-knowing.

For the second sentence, here is a quote from Isaac Newton:  "When I wrote my treatise about our Systeme I had an eye upon such Principles as might work with considering men for the beliefe of a Deity and nothing can rejoyce me more than to find it useful for that purpose."

Offline CarbShark

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1163 on: December 11, 2019, 08:11:48 PM »
I have seen some far-left individuals sneak their opposition to capitalism/market-economy under the fight to stop climate change.

I wouldn't call it, "sneaking in."

I have seen vegan/vegetarians sneak their opposition to meat and beef consumption under the fight to stop climate change, right here in these forums. In this very topic.
and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Offline 2397

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1164 on: December 11, 2019, 08:14:52 PM »
Yeah, they sneak in their opposition to fossil fuels and setting forests on fire, too.

Offline Rai

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1165 on: December 11, 2019, 09:12:59 PM »
As fighting capitalism and climate change is intertwined, there is no sneaking in going on. Late capitalism is the motor for the apocalypse and you cannot stop one without stopping the other.

However, there is no sneaking going on whatsoever. Just like how a doctor doesn't "sneak in" discussions of medicine when talking about a disease.
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Offline CarbShark

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1166 on: December 11, 2019, 09:24:52 PM »
As fighting capitalism and climate change is intertwined, there is no sneaking in going on. Late capitalism is the motor for the apocalypse and you cannot stop one without stopping the other.

However, there is no sneaking going on whatsoever. Just like how a doctor doesn't "sneak in" discussions of medicine when talking about a disease.
So if that were the case then the non capitalist countries would be making more progress. Like China and North Korea.

Capitalist systems can respond to these kinds of issues. Cap and Trade worked to combat emissions contributing to acid rain and HFCs have been greatly reduced, stopping and reversing damage to the ozone layer.

Compared to where we were in the 60s the EPA has made a huge difference. Although we’ve backtracked a bit lately. 

We just need the will. And a Democratic sweep in 2020.


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and Donald Trump is President of the United States.

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Online gmalivuk

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1167 on: December 11, 2019, 10:35:09 PM »
As fighting capitalism and climate change is intertwined, there is no sneaking in going on. Late capitalism is the motor for the apocalypse and you cannot stop one without stopping the other.
So if that were the case then the non capitalist countries would be making more progress. Like China and North Korea.
Rai said ending capitalism is necessary to stop climate change. That doesn't mean it's sufficient.

Also state capitalism is still capitalism, so China isn't a proper counterexample in any case.
The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better...is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.

Offline werecow

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1168 on: December 11, 2019, 11:17:12 PM »
As fighting capitalism and climate change is intertwined, there is no sneaking in going on. Late capitalism is the motor for the apocalypse and you cannot stop one without stopping the other.

Unchecked capitalism, for sure. That's just your basic tragedy of the commons. But I think when it comes to renewables we should be using the market more, not less (given that there is zero chance that we are getting rid of capitalism in the next few decades). For example: STOP SUBSIDIZING FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES, SUPPOSEDLY PRO-FREE MARKET PEOPLE!* Baby steps, I guess.

*: And hey, crazy idea, maybe even invest some of the resulting budget excess in alternative energy or energy storage, etc.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 11:22:16 PM by werecow »
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: Climate Change Catchment Thread
« Reply #1169 on: December 12, 2019, 01:15:07 PM »
As fighting capitalism and climate change is intertwined, there is no sneaking in going on. Late capitalism is the motor for the apocalypse and you cannot stop one without stopping the other.
So if that were the case then the non capitalist countries would be making more progress. Like China and North Korea.
Rai said ending capitalism is necessary to stop climate change. That doesn't mean it's sufficient.

Also state capitalism is still capitalism, so China isn't a proper counterexample in any case.

The Soviet Union is a proper example though, and it was an ecological disaster.
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