Author Topic: Ten Commandments Monuments  (Read 747 times)

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Online Desert Fox

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Ten Commandments Monuments
« on: February 28, 2017, 02:23:05 PM »
This may be more or less a US issue because other nations laws are different and may very well be different issues.
Some from outside the United States may still want to comment on this and that is fine.

There is a recent case where a mother argued that a school needed to take down a Ten Commandments monument
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/02/23/atheist-threatened-over-ten-commandments-lawsuit-you-should-be-dragged-in-the-street-and-shot/

(click to show/hide)

Obviously from the article, there is the idea that those threatening her with death are breaking the sixth commandment.
It gave me a second thought though as well, by putting up the ten commandments monument in the first place they seem to be breaking the second one?
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Online Ah.hell

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 02:28:16 PM »
Killing heathens isn't really murder, so that's not an issue. 

You might have a point about the second though.

Online Desert Fox

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 02:53:05 PM »
Killing heathens isn't really murder, so that's not an issue. 

You might have a point about the second though.

Did Jesus or Paul support the murder of unbelievers in their midst? 

"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Online Friendly Angel

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 03:07:37 PM »
Killing heathens isn't really murder, so that's not an issue. 

You might have a point about the second though.

Did Jesus or Paul support the murder of unbelievers in their midst?

Jesus killed a couple guys himself just for bad behavior.
Amend and resubmit.

Online Desert Fox

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 03:10:16 PM »
Killing heathens isn't really murder, so that's not an issue. 

You might have a point about the second though.

Did Jesus or Paul support the murder of unbelievers in their midst?

Jesus killed a couple guys himself just for bad behavior.

Can you point out the passages?
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Online Friendly Angel

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 03:13:15 PM »
Killing heathens isn't really murder, so that's not an issue. 

You might have a point about the second though.

Did Jesus or Paul support the murder of unbelievers in their midst?

Jesus killed a couple guys himself just for bad behavior.

Can you point out the passages?

Infancy Gospel of Thomas:

Quote
III. 1 But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly

IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died
Amend and resubmit.

Offline seamas

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 03:15:55 PM »
I always get annoyed at the premise for putting these monuments up in the first place.
Common arguments from proponents is that it is the basis of our laws--or where our laws originate.

Forgetting for a moment that the "10 Commandments" are listed in the Torah in a couple places and have different commandments listed (most are same, some differ). Which are the real 10???

Anyway, the  commandments given above that have any basis in US law are:
Do not have any other god before God.
    Do not make yourself an idol.
    Do not take the Lord's name in vain.
    Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy.
    Honor thy Mother and Father.
    Do not murder.
    Do not commit adultery.
    Do not steal.
Do not testify false witness against your neighbor. (in certain circumstances)
    Do not covet.




Online Mr. Beagle

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 03:17:44 PM »
The Wikipedia article on the Ten Commandments lists eight different ways in which these verses are divvied into ten commandments. Interestingly, the Talmud divvies them differently from most Christian versions. What if God gives you a test?
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Online Desert Fox

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 03:25:37 PM »
Infancy Gospel of Thomas:

Quote
III. 1 But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly

IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died

I think few Christians accept it so that that woudl be a hard argument to use
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Offline seamas

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 03:25:40 PM »
The Wikipedia article on the Ten Commandments lists eight different ways in which these verses are divvied into ten commandments. Interestingly, the Talmud divvies them differently from most Christian versions. What if God gives you a test?

What is the capital of Assyria?

Online Desert Fox

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 03:29:10 PM »
Do not testify false witness against your neighbor. (in certain circumstances)

I look at is lying in court and/or lying that causes serious problems for the target of the lies so I can kind of accept that one as reasonable. Not something we cannot figure out for ourselves however.

My argument with graven images is that maybe one should actually try a religious argument to see how Christians try to argue out of it. One It have heard is that is not how it should be interpreted without giving any reasonable alternate.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 03:30:11 PM »
The Wikipedia article on the Ten Commandments lists eight different ways in which these verses are divvied into ten commandments. Interestingly, the Talmud divvies them differently from most Christian versions. What if God gives you a test?

What is the capital of Assyria?
 

I don't know that.
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Offline seamas

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 03:35:50 PM »
Do not testify false witness against your neighbor. (in certain circumstances)

I look at is lying in court and/or lying that causes serious problems for the target of the lies so I can kind of accept that one as reasonable. Not something we cannot figure out for ourselves however.

My argument with graven images is that maybe one should actually try a religious argument to see how Christians try to argue out of it. One It have heard is that is not how it should be interpreted without giving any reasonable alternate.

Graven images is an interesting one.
I once heard some scholar argue that the correct translation from Torah would simply be "images" (no mention of graven).
He made the argument that this was for the Hebrews to separate themselves from the other civilizations that were using hieroglyphs and picture writing. I think his reasoning is a bit of a stretch, but he went on to mention the Hebrews strong focus on literacy, and how it was a source of strength--and how in the Beginning was the word.
The commandment is probably better explained as a rejection of ancient Sumarian practices though.

Online Desert Fox

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 03:55:53 PM »
Graven images is an interesting one.
I once heard some scholar argue that the correct translation from Torah would simply be "images" (no mention of graven).
He made the argument that this was for the Hebrews to separate themselves from the other civilizations that were using hieroglyphs and picture writing. I think his reasoning is a bit of a stretch, but he went on to mention the Hebrews strong focus on literacy, and how it was a source of strength--and how in the Beginning was the word.
The commandment is probably better explained as a rejection of ancient Sumarian practices though.

I have done security work in a Jewish community center and I think the Cantor actually enjoyed talking to me about his religion.
That I can recall, it has been many years, there was little in the form of overt symbolism like a Ten Commandments display would be.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Online Mr. Beagle

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Re: Ten Commandments Monuments
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2017, 04:29:24 PM »
My understanding was that "the Word" (logos) theology came from Greek through Philo . Anyone?
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