Author Topic: Episode #611  (Read 2807 times)

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Offline Steven Novella

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Episode #611
« on: March 25, 2017, 12:37:05 PM »
Guest Rogue: Joshie Berger; What’s the Word: Factoid; News Items: Cybersecurity and Neuromorphic Chips, Chiropractic Quackery, ASMR; Special Reports: Animals in the Bible; Who’s That Noisy; Science or Fiction
Steven Novella
Host, The Skeptics Guide
snovella@theness.com

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2017, 02:18:54 PM »
Re: Chiropractic.  What about the model of osteopathy?  It started out as purest energy-based nonsense, but now, at least in the US, DO's are now legitimate doctors with comparable training to MD's.  Indeed, the most evidence-based PCP I've ever had was an DO.  I can see chiropractors eventually becoming science-based physical therapists.

ETA: And Steve then makes my point.  I shouldn't post before a segment is over.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 02:21:53 PM by The Latinist »
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Offline 2397

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2017, 04:45:34 PM »
I shouldn't post before a segment is over.

"But I'm mad now!"

I find I comment a lot less on podcasts if I listen to them while I'm not near a (suitable) computer.

Offline webbess10

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2017, 08:42:59 PM »
Joshie would make a great guest on so many shows: Joe Rogan, Drunken Peasants, The Thinking Atheist and even Dave Rubin.

Offline Albert

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2017, 08:15:38 PM »
To Steve about Chiropractic.
NO. There is no place for chiropractic. You mention that chiro seems OK for Rx of back pain because it is as effective as anything else. That is because nothing is effective for acute back pain (not cancer, infection, metabolic disease, deformity etc etc.). My orthopedic hero, Alf Nachemson, laid this out in the first issue of Spine in 1976- (Spine . 1(1):57-58, March 1976.) and little if anything has changed since. Naproxen (OTC) is by far cheaper and more effective than almost any intervention. Even physical therapy has practitioners of "shake & bake" treatments which go nowhere. Real therapy is done BY the patient not TO him.
Some MDs tolerate and use the chiros as an easy off-ramp for their patients with back pain. But they too are practicing in a non science based scam.
If there is to be any salvation of the "sincere" chiros- it would be to become Physical Therapists. These are well trained (usually) science-based practitioners. If they were allowed to do primary eval and care of patients,chiros would just go away.
There is no place for chiropractors.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2017, 08:57:25 PM »
My experience with chiropractors and one osteopath:

Circa 1994, my last winter in rural North Dakota, I hurt my back while shoveling snow after an unusually fierce blizzard which blew in just the wrong direction and left an enormous hard-packed snowdrift on my long driveway. Since then, any time I lift something too heavy, my back hurts for days or weeks.

On several occasions, the pain was bad enough, that I got desperate enough to go to a chiropractor. The manipulation gives me significant relief that lasts, literally, about ten minutes. By the time I get back to my car, I'm in pain again.

Once I took a "Healthy Back" class at the YMCA in Fargo, taught by a chiropractor who told us that most chiropractors are quacks. He told us that most back pain is caused by damage to soft tissue, not by misalignments in the spine. And that the key to a healthy back is to stretch and strengthen the muscles of the back. Stretch the tight ones, and strengthen the weak ones, and to this end he gave us a program of exercises.

When I was living in Spain, I hurt my back by carrying a microwave oven up about 4 flights of stairs. The pain was so bad I could hardly walk, and past experience suggested I likely would be unable to jog for a month and a half. In desperation I looked in the phone book for a chiropractor, and what I found was an osteopath.

She began with a back massage to loosen the muscles. Then she twisted me up like a pretzel, in much the same way as a chiropractor, but without the "snap." Just a really hard stretch. When she was done I was free of pain and walking normally. I asked her when I should come back, because chiropractors always want you to come back multiple times. Her reply was that it was not necessary. The pain did not return and a week later I was jogging again.

Half a year later I moved, again had to carry the microwave up the stairs to the new apartment, and again my back was crippled with pain. I went back to the osteopath, with the same results.

When I returned home to North Dakota, I tried to find an osteopath, for reference for future back pain, but the only ones I could find did not treat that sort of injury. I had a massage therapist who rented a room in a chiropractor's office, and I described to the chiropractor what the osteopath had done, and asked him if he could do that, but he was reluctant to do anything other than his usual thing.

I regularly do a yoga-dead-bug-style stretch, which is as near as I can come on my own to what the osteopath did to me, and I think it helps, but I've never found anyone here who does what the Spanish osteopath did. My new (as of maybe 6 months ago) primary is a D.O. but I've never had this conversation with him.
Daniel
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"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline The Latinist

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2017, 09:37:05 PM »
When I was living in Spain, I hurt my back by carrying a microwave oven up about 4 flights of stairs. The pain was so bad I could hardly walk, and past experience suggested I likely would be unable to jog for a month and a half. In desperation I looked in the phone book for a chiropractor, and what I found was an osteopath.

She began with a back massage to loosen the muscles. Then she twisted me up like a pretzel, in much the same way as a chiropractor, but without the "snap." Just a really hard stretch. When she was done I was free of pain and walking normally. I asked her when I should come back, because chiropractors always want you to come back multiple times. Her reply was that it was not necessary. The pain did not return and a week later I was jogging again.

Osteopaths in other countries are not at all the same as DO's in the US.  A DO is a physician whose training was in a school which offers the OD degree.  There's little difference in their training from that of an MD, the main difference being an emphasis on holistic treatment (not in the woo-sense, but in the whole-body preventive sense). They are more likely to become PCPs for that reason.  They have the same residential training, etc.  And they're licensed by the same medical boards.  It is my understanding that most osteopaths in the US receive only a brief introduction to osteopathic manipulation.

My understanding is that osteopaths elsewhere in the world are a very different beast, with very different training and regulatory oversight that varies widely by country.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline seamas

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2017, 02:23:26 PM »
For a goy, I tend to be pretty good at the Science or Jewy.

The one about the bread dough made me wonder if it was ritualizing the practice of saving a piece of dough for use in the next day's bread --from the days before we knew about yeast.

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2017, 12:19:08 AM »
I was always under the impression that the ASMR response was primarily to the sound - whispering or scratching sounds in particular. If performing actions slowly and precisely is the key, may I suggest Almazan Kitchen as a possible source? I've been watching this channel for a while now and from the description given in the podcast it seems to me that it might be good. I don't experience ASMR so I can't tell. Anyone feel like opining?

Offline alfaniner

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2017, 01:07:33 AM »
Is the bread dough (fiction) any more ridiculous than Rachael Ray in her early shows?  She threw so much salt over her shoulder I thought she was prepping for a slow shuffle tap dance.

re:ASMR -- is there any more definitive experience than (lyrics aside) the entirety of Spirit in the Sky? (played LOUD)

 I'd probably place David Essex's Rock On opening as a close second.

I don't particularly associate them with anything (no VIDEO, no personal experience) except for an era.

Online estockly

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 02:10:17 AM »
I believe I've have an ASMR response to one very specific stimuli.

Standing on a cliff over looking the ocean as large waves (15ft) crash just below.

I could stand and watch that for hours.

and Donald Trump is President of the United States.


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Offline JuniorSpaceman

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 03:46:50 AM »
I only just realised a few weeks ago that I get a genuine ASMR response (meaning, exactly the same feeling that is reported by people talking about ASMR) when I hear certain frequencies in music, particularly what is considered 'noise' music or 'avant garde'. I've also had it from certain guitar tones and feedback, particularly in a live situation. I have an hypothesis that there may be a lot of different things that give different people 'tingles', but because there are already whole genres of music that cater to my particular triggers, it has never needed to become a specialised type of video/audio recording.

By the way, I find any 'regular' ASMR videos not only not pleasurable, but outright annoying, which I think is interesting, although I'm sure people who get something out of those videos would also find Merzbow records equally off-putting.

Offline seamas

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 10:37:26 AM »
Is the bread dough (fiction) any more ridiculous than Rachael Ray in her early shows? 

The removal of the bread dough was not the fiction--it is a real practice.

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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2017, 11:15:07 AM »
I believe I've have an ASMR response to one very specific stimuli.

Standing on a cliff over looking the ocean as large waves (15ft) crash just below.

I could stand and watch that for hours.
I'm the same way. I can watch rapids on a river or a stream for hours. It's just very hypnotic.  I also get the same effect with ocean waves. It can be at the shore or out at sea. I don't know if it is ASMR or what.
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Re: Episode #611
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2017, 11:19:02 AM »

By the way, I find any 'regular' ASMR videos not only not pleasurable, but outright annoying, which I think is interesting,.............

I'm the same way. I just want to strangle the person on the other side of the video. Is that an ASMR response too? Lol
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