Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 92063 times)

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Offline 2397

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #150 on: April 06, 2017, 08:31:36 AM »
This is also the number one rule of alt med quackery, as it happens. No need to provide evidence when you have earnest people telling you about their subjective experiences. Just listen and believe.

That's a fair enough approach when it's about you and that specific person, and you're trying to do things in a way or set up things in a way that makes them more comfortable.

Offline superdave

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #151 on: April 06, 2017, 09:38:26 AM »
This is also the number one rule of alt med quackery, as it happens. No need to provide evidence when you have earnest people telling you about their subjective experiences. Just listen and believe.

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The difference here is that we are talking specifically about feelings, so denying a person's feelings effectively discounts the phenomenon entirely.  If a person thinks that the wires above their house is causing them an illness, it's not their feelings that are wrong, it's the source of the feelings.  You wouldn't tell that person that they really aren't feeling unwell.
I disavow anyone in the movement involved in any illegal,unethical, sexist, or racist behavior. However, I don't have the energy or time to investigate each person and case, and a lack of individual disavowals for each incident should not be construed as condoning such behavior.

Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #152 on: April 06, 2017, 09:48:47 AM »
If that person demanded the wires be rerouted around their house, we'd expect some evidence of a broader social benefit. Or at least I would.

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« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 10:08:11 AM by D4M10N »

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #153 on: April 06, 2017, 09:53:03 AM »
So go back to the beginning of the thread and read what's been written, and you'll understand the social benefit.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #154 on: April 06, 2017, 10:00:26 AM »
Will do, thanks.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 10:11:40 AM by D4M10N »

Offline random poet

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #155 on: April 06, 2017, 01:16:13 PM »
This is also the number one rule of alt med quackery, as it happens. No need to provide evidence when you have earnest people telling you about their subjective experiences. Just listen and believe.

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This is absolute bullshit. You're the one sitting here not listening to the piles of sociological evidence, from actual research. This isn't like alt-med anecdotes, this is you being a global warming denier.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #156 on: April 06, 2017, 01:21:28 PM »
Piles of sociological evidence measuring the harms of cultural appropriation, such as surf rock and faddish klezmer?


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Offline jt512

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #157 on: April 06, 2017, 02:11:53 PM »
Piles of sociological evidence measuring the harms of cultural appropriation, such as surf rock and faddish klezmer?

And culturally appropriated chicken soup.
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Offline random poet

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #158 on: April 06, 2017, 04:22:51 PM »
Piles of meteological evidence measuring the harms of global warming, such as the last winter being so, so cold and that one snowstorm in Kaboul?


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This is what you sound like right now.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #159 on: April 06, 2017, 04:31:08 PM »
That's a wonderful analogy. Where can we find the global cultural appropriation analog to this chart?

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Global_Temperature_Anomaly.svg

Seems like you'd have to have something like that if you really want to say that the effects of CA are on the same sort of evidential footing as AGW.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 04:43:30 PM by D4M10N »

Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #160 on: April 06, 2017, 06:53:09 PM »
Why is it so important to you, D4M10N, to "disprove" CA entirely?
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #161 on: April 06, 2017, 07:13:53 PM »
Disprove or prove, entirely or partially. Any combination is fine.

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Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #162 on: April 06, 2017, 07:38:19 PM »
I've only skimmed this thread, so pardon me if I characterize something incorrectly.

What troubles me is that people tend to be treating this issue as if it is binary.  Perhaps there are some bad aspects of CA, but at the same time there are good aspects.  By way of example, take one of the biggest offenders of CA out there - Eminem.  If we assume that rap music in the 90's was a largely rooted in the African-American community, one can argue that Eminem cost at least one African American person an opportunity to be a successful performer.  But isn't it possible that the good eclipsed the bad?  Eminem brought rap music to the masses, which undoubtedly led to the rise of many African-American artists who may never have had the same opportunities but for Eminem's success.  It also created a cultural bridge between the white and African-American communities.  Countless whites were led to an appreciation of at least this aspect of African-American culture.

Second, there is something in the back of my head that feels as if those steadfastly opposed to cultural appropriation are really just advocating for a "separate but equal" doctrine.  If we believe that social inequities are reduced when walls are broken, why advocate for the erection of walls?  Maybe there is some short term pain, but wouldn't there be long term gain with fewer walls?


 

Offline Harry Black

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #163 on: April 06, 2017, 07:54:10 PM »
The existence of cultural exchange does not make appropriation a good thing.
Appropriation is bad by definition (at this point, people are going to have to go google the definition for themselves), but the two things are close.
Its important to stress that cultural exchange is not what is being objected to.

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #164 on: April 06, 2017, 08:02:06 PM »
I've only skimmed this thread, so pardon me if I characterize something incorrectly.

What troubles me is that people tend to be treating this issue as if it is binary.  Perhaps there are some bad aspects of CA, but at the same time there are good aspects.

You're only seeing that from those seeking to deny it entirely. The Latinist even specifically stopped to separate appropriation (the negative) from cultural sharing and mixing (the good elements). Simply put there is no way you have come to this conclusion based on what you've read in this thread from those claiming cultural appropriation has negative sides. The tendency is to confuse the issue with a lack of specificity because it makes it easier to play the "I like pizza therefore cultural appropriation is good, checkmate libs" card.

By way of example, take one of the biggest offenders of CA out there - Eminem.  If we assume that rap music in the 90's was a largely rooted in the African-American community, one can argue that Eminem cost at least one African American person an opportunity to be a successful performer.  But isn't it possible that the good eclipsed the bad?  Eminem brought rap music to the masses, which undoubtedly led to the rise of many African-American artists who may never have had the same opportunities but for Eminem's success.  It also created a cultural bridge between the white and African-American communities.  Countless whites were led to an appreciation of at least this aspect of African-American culture.

Eminem did not bring rap music to the masses. That is utterly ridiculous. Further, Eminem ensured that the most virulent aspects of misogigny, homophobia, and violence were perpetuated, so while people may have appreciated a lot of his work and he's vocally and lyrically clever, he wasn't the rap white Jesus you're portraying him as. I mean come on, his debut album was 1996 and he didn't really get big until he signed with Dre in '99. Beastie Boys dropped a top 50 of all time album in '86, KoRn and Limp Bizkit were using rap elements in their music before Em ever published. MC Hammer, NWA, Tupac, Biggie, Easy E, all of them were making national news before anyone knew who the real Slim Shady was.

Shitty example aside, the food angle is typically brought up to try to confuse things. Sharing food and music is not a negative if it's treated in a respectful way. Stripping everything of the culture away from that food and trying to rebrand it as your own or playing off the "the noble savages of Chile produce this quinoa, an ancient grain" and the resulting massive disruptions to local food markets in Chile are a bad thing.

Second, there is something in the back of my head that feels as if those steadfastly opposed to cultural appropriation are really just advocating for a "separate but equal" doctrine.  If we believe that social inequities are reduced when walls are broken, why advocate for the erection of walls?  Maybe there is some short term pain, but wouldn't there be long term gain with fewer walls?

You cannot have read this thread if you think the prevailing opinion is that we need 'walls' between cultures. This arguyment does closely mirror the race discussions because a similar argument is made by people who would prefer to pretend racism doesn't exist or sexism doesn't exist. Nobody in this thread is arguing for strict cultural segregation, rather the ideal is to be sensitive to protrayal and treatment of other cultures, to acknowledge them in a respectful way, and try to mititgate harm when it happens.
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