Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 93936 times)

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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1740 on: November 04, 2018, 12:24:20 PM »
Do you have any scientific evidence for your claim about African features, or are you just going off the popular stereotype?

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1741 on: November 04, 2018, 12:25:20 PM »

Are you guys both saying it is part of African (American) culture to have plump, attractive lips, much like Angelina Jolie?

I am saying people of African descent have those features and people dehumanize them for it. Facial features are big part of self identity, so that makes it cultural in a way.

White people with the same features do not experience the same treatment. Instead you even provided another example of a person with European descent who is applauded for her big lips. So the dominant culture has appropriated for itself but denying another race to identify positively with the same feature.

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1742 on: November 04, 2018, 12:27:09 PM »
Do you have any scientific evidence for your claim about African features, or are you just going off the popular stereotype?

Maybe I should give scientific evidence that racism is real phenomenon. Because that's where we are going to end up if you constantly keep moving the goal post.

Lol, to me, that question of yours comes across as trollish in nature.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 12:31:09 PM by haudace »

Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1743 on: November 04, 2018, 12:31:13 PM »
Do you have any scientific evidence for your claim about African features, or are you just going off the popular stereotype?

Maybe I should give scientific evidence that racism is real phenomenon.
Maybe you should refer back to the definition of cultural appropriation.

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1744 on: November 04, 2018, 12:40:08 PM »
Do you have any scientific evidence for your claim about African features, or are you just going off the popular stereotype?

Maybe I should give scientific evidence that racism is real phenomenon.
Maybe you should refer back to the definition of cultural appropriation.

Yeah, I have had this issue before. People setup some strange definitions of CA that are logically unsound and very easy to debunk. I am over here trying to talk about something else entirely which people are quick to shut down and dismiss because of the strange non nuanced definitions people have invented even though I do not necessarily prescribe to these elusive definitions. At this point, I am completely clueless about your definition.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 12:42:24 PM by haudace »

Offline stands2reason

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1745 on: November 04, 2018, 12:41:23 PM »
Let's stop pretending negative CA isn't real in some cases.

What you presented is negative, but it is not cultural appropriation. How is black/dark skin a cultural artifact that is being appropriated? Blackface like what you posted is racist (an offensive racial stereotype), but it is not cultural appropriation.

Note, I am not accusing you of doing anything maliciously, but I am suggesting that it is sloppy logic to draw an equivalence between cultural appropriation <---> racism, and there is an intentional desire in outrage politics to have this happen in order to bring down discourse and make outrage more prevalent. By convention, outrage politics wants to have one word to describe things that are merely impolite and/or offensive, and actual hate. So that one can have outrage by pretending to see hate in anything they disagree with. Once again, we are all rightly offended by historical (and modern) use of Blackface, because it is racist. But Blackface has Jack to do with cultural appropriation.

Anything culturally insensitive—something that one could call cultural appropriation, but more specifically is using a foreign cultural symbol offensively. Versus racism: having an intense disdain for people(s), thinking they are Other, because of ethnic lineage and/or their appearance.  Why have sloppy logic and pretend the two are the same? Because it is convenient for outrage culture to believe that any act of criticizing a culture is xenophobia/bigotry, the political bogeyman that outrage politics is defined around.

To summarize: racism is still bad, Blackface is still racist, Blackface is not cultural appropriation, not only does Blackface not answer the existential question of what cultural appropriation is and is not, it makes it look even more like cultural appropriation doesn't have a coherent meaning.

Let's try to deflate the drama of Blackface by using a more realistic example: let's say I put on a fake tan solution. There are a lot of ethnicities that have darker skin than me. Whose skin color am I culturally appropriating in this case? How is this different from naturally giving my skin more melanin with intense tanning? The range of possible skin colors that I can have (and have had, over my life) has nothing to do with any culture. It is my individual biology.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 01:02:52 PM by stands2reason »

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1746 on: November 04, 2018, 12:59:32 PM »
Let's stop pretending negative CA isn't real in some cases.

What you presented is negative, but it is not cultural appropriation. How is black/dark skin a cultural artifact that is being appropriated? Blackface like what you posted is racist (an offensive racial stereotype), but it is not cultural appropriation.

Blackface is an example of people ridiculing and dehumanizing african americans for their natural features. But these features are not objects of ridicule or dehumanization when they are found on a person of European descent. In many cases, they are even regarded as beautiful. This is what people think of when they are discussing cultural appropriation.

I honestly do not know how to make this any more clear. I am just parroting what I have already stated before.

Quote
Note, I am not accusing you of doing anything maliciously, but I am suggesting that it is sloppy logic to draw an equivalence between cultural appropriation <---> racism, and there is an intentional desire in outrage politics to have this happen in order to bring down discourse and make outrage more prevalent. By convention, outrage politics wants to have one word to describe things that are merely impolite and/or offensive, and actual hate. So that one can have outrage by pretending to see hate in anything they disagree with. Once again, we are all rightly offended by historical (and modern) use of Blackface, because it is racist. But Blackface has Jack to do with cultural appropriation. 

Anything culturally insensitive—something that one could call cultural appropriation, but more specifically is using a foreign cultural symbol offensively. Versus racism: having an intense disdain for people(s), thinking they are Other, because of ethnic lineage and/or their appearance.  Why have sloppy logic and pretend the two are the same? Because it is convenient for outrage culture to believe that any act of criticizing a culture is xenophobia/bigotry, the political bogeyman that outrage politics is defined around.

To summarize: racism is still bad, Blackface is still racist, Blackface is not cultural appropriation, and bringing it up doesn't help the existential question of what exactly cultural appropriation is and is not, and why it is or could be wrong or not.

Hmm, maybe we just can't understand each other. Or I have to improve my communication skills lol. I am not particularly sure how you went down that road in the above paragraph.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1747 on: November 04, 2018, 01:07:48 PM »
Hmm, maybe we just can't understand each other. Or I have to improve my communication skills lol.

I'm being serious here: Your post comes across like satire which is subtextually white supremacist.

For as long as there's been white people, white people have been getting tanned as hell.  But black people are dark so now white people need to not be?

For as long as there's been humans, there's been lip augmentation.  But some black people have full lips so now white people need to not be?

Your argument comes across as having operationalized CA into a stick you use to hit white people when they're too close to anything black-associated.


Like, CA as a term for harmful culture mixing makes sense. The way American culture incorporated Native American culture was pretty malicious and harmful. It's definitely useful to have a word for that.

But tanning and botox?  Really?
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Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1748 on: November 04, 2018, 01:14:13 PM »
Hmm, maybe we just can't understand each other. Or I have to improve my communication skills lol.

I'm being serious here: Your post comes across like satire which is subtextually white supremacist.

For as long as there's been white people, white people have been getting tanned as hell.  But black people are dark so now white people need to not be?

For as long as there's been humans, there's been lip augmentation.  But some black people have full lips so now white people need to not be?

Your argument comes across as having operationalized CA into a stick you use to hit white people when they're too close to anything black-associated.


Like, CA as a term for harmful culture mixing makes sense. The way American culture incorporated Native American culture was pretty malicious and harmful. It's definitely useful to have a word for that.

But tanning and botox?  Really?

Show me where I have stated white people cannot tan or have full lips?

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1749 on: November 04, 2018, 01:19:45 PM »
The primary use of CA is to connote 'bad.'

That's all I ever see. Are you doing something new here?
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1750 on: November 04, 2018, 01:27:55 PM »


Yeah, I have had this issue before. People setup some strange definitions of CA that are logically unsound and very easy to debunk. I am over here trying to talk about something else entirely which people are quick to shut down and dismiss because of the strange non nuanced definitions people have invented even though I do not necessarily prescribe to these elusive definitions. At this point, I am completely clueless about your definition.

Happy to use the definition from reply #19 upthread

Do you honestly believe artificially plumping one's  lips was a subcultural innovation unique to African Americans prior to appropriation by European Americans? If so, I'm happy to consider the argument. If not, then you're off topic.

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1751 on: November 04, 2018, 01:57:03 PM »
The primary use of CA is to connote 'bad.'

That's all I ever see. Are you doing something new here?

I don't think my talking points are anything new. But please do show me first where I have stated (or even alluded) white people cannot tan or have full lips.



Yeah, I have had this issue before. People setup some strange definitions of CA that are logically unsound and very easy to debunk. I am over here trying to talk about something else entirely which people are quick to shut down and dismiss because of the strange non nuanced definitions people have invented even though I do not necessarily prescribe to these elusive definitions. At this point, I am completely clueless about your definition.

Happy to use the definition from reply #19 upthread

Do you honestly believe artificially plumping one's  lips was a subcultural innovation unique to African Americans prior to appropriation by European Americans? If so, I'm happy to consider the argument. If not, then you're off topic.

I generally agree with the sentence "A deeper understanding of cultural appropriation also refers to a particular power dynamic in which members of a dominant culture take elements from a culture of people who have been systematically oppressed by that dominant group." Although the term "take" may cause confusion to some people. It might suggest a dominant culture didn't have those cultural elements prior the act of appropriation. This is not true at all. My understanding of appropriation is to take exclusive possession of something, control by a single individual or group which can be negative depending on the circumstances.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 02:10:13 PM by haudace »

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1752 on: November 04, 2018, 01:58:09 PM »
Do you honestly believe artificially plumping one's  lips was a subcultural innovation unique to African Americans prior to appropriation by European Americans? If so, I'm happy to consider the argument. If not, then you're off topic.

To circle back to my impression, who is more fixated on black people than American white supremacists?

Dark skin is non-specific to black people (but they are white supremacists' main focus).

'Full lips' is non-specific to black people (but this is the white supremacists' stereotyping).

One might even call that example of CA... problematic.

This is Poe's Law territory.

I don't think my talking points are anything new. But please do show me first where I have stated (or even alluded) white people cannot tan or have full lips.

Is CA bad?  If so, it follows.

So, is it?

edit: And of what use/meaning is the term if you stretch it all the way to 'cultural overlap or the mere appearance thereof'?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 02:05:51 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
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Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1753 on: November 04, 2018, 02:06:19 PM »
Do you honestly believe artificially plumping one's  lips was a subcultural innovation unique to African Americans prior to appropriation by European Americans? If so, I'm happy to consider the argument. If not, then you're off topic.

To circle back to my impression, who is more fixated on black people than American white supremacists?

Dark skin is non-specific to black people (but they are white supremacists' main focus).

'Full lips' is non-specific to black people (but this is the white supremacists' stereotyping).

One might even call that example of CA... problematic.

Wait hang on? Are you possibly suggesting I am a white supremacist?


Is CA bad?  If so, it follows.

So, is it?

Why are you asking me this question? You posted this a couple of comments ago:


Like, CA as a term for harmful culture mixing makes sense. The way American culture incorporated Native American culture was pretty malicious and harmful. It's definitely useful to have a word for that.

Offline stands2reason

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1754 on: November 04, 2018, 02:15:02 PM »
To circle back to my impression, who is more fixated on black people than American white supremacists?

Dark skin is non-specific to black people (but they are white supremacists' main focus).

'Full lips' is non-specific to black people (but this is the white supremacists' stereotyping).

One might even call that example of CA... problematic.

This is Poe's Law territory.

Almost like the people that are using the idea of cultural appropriation are themselves racist and xenophobic. Just look at the motive they project wen they see "their own" using foreign cultural symbols. And they are actually the ones that seem to draw an equivalence between ethnicity/race and culture, an example of what they claim to be against.

Why are you asking me this question? You posted this a couple of comments ago:


Like, CA as a term for harmful culture mixing makes sense. The way American culture incorporated Native American culture was pretty malicious and harmful. It's definitely useful to have a word for that.

I think it is clear they are talking about everything that happened to Native American culture before the phrase "cultural appropriation" was invented, not a Comache Halloween costume.

Like "Indian" casinos? American Spirit cigarettes? Pontiac?