Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 93931 times)

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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1755 on: November 04, 2018, 02:23:33 PM »
Are you possibly suggesting I am a white supremacist?

Most of what I see about CA looks like an artifact of fringe insanity and toxicity.  I think you've trusted/internalized some of that.

For example, your example of CA touches on racism, double standards and cultural similarity in a way that looks like satire of CA.

edit:

Disclosure of Bias: I am not capable of ever taking 'CA teaches us that white people eating tacos is racism' type stuff seriously.  When you're talking about tacos and tanning, what's the utility of any of it anymore?

edit 2: If you stretch the term to the point where you can say 'anything in the dominant group that reminds me of a non-dominant group is CA' then how is there any meaning or utility left?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 02:27:17 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
... in war the screams are loud and harsh and in peace the wail is so drawn-out we tell ourselves we hear nothing.

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1756 on: November 04, 2018, 02:30:12 PM »
Are you possibly suggesting I am a white supremacist?

Most of what I see about CA looks like an artifact of fringe insanity and toxicity.  I think you've trusted/internalized some of that.

For example, your example of CA touches on racism, double standards and cultural similarity in a way that looks like satire of CA.

edit:

Disclosure of Bias: I am not capable of ever taking 'CA teaches us that white people eating tacos is racism' type stuff seriously.  When you're talking about tacos and tanning, what's the utility of any of it anymore?

Alright, show me where I have said white people tanning, having big lips or eating tacos is racist.

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1757 on: November 04, 2018, 02:33:06 PM »
Then directly state that this neither racist nor bad already:
For those acting like concerns about CA are bullshit - here's a simple example (although I don't know what this is going to do since it's been brought up countless times in this thread).

Stereotyping and dehumanizing African features


Black features combined with an european ethnic look making people billionaires.




Let's stop pretending negative CA isn't real in some cases.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 02:36:23 PM by Soldier of FORTRAN »
... in war the screams are loud and harsh and in peace the wail is so drawn-out we tell ourselves we hear nothing.

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1758 on: November 04, 2018, 02:36:09 PM »
I am confused? Blackface is definitely racist but are you saying Kylie Jenner is racist as well?

What is your point?

Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1759 on: November 04, 2018, 02:39:50 PM »
I guess you don't have any ideas or positions you're capable of defending.

edit: Typed that up before your edit but I'm just going to leave it
... in war the screams are loud and harsh and in peace the wail is so drawn-out we tell ourselves we hear nothing.

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1760 on: November 04, 2018, 02:47:05 PM »
I guess you don't have any ideas or positions you're capable of defending.

edit: Typed that up before your edit but I'm just going to leave it

I genuinely did not understand what you were trying to say. You kept jumping from one thing to another, never fully explaining your reasoning. You also throw claims I supposedly stated but I do not recall ever saying and somehow linked it to an earlier post of mine. I am honestly not understanding your thinking process.

I am not a telepath, please explain your thinking in order for me to grasp where you are getting at.

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1761 on: November 04, 2018, 06:31:55 PM »
Do you have any scientific evidence for your claim about African features, or are you just going off the popular stereotype?

Maybe I should give scientific evidence that racism is real phenomenon.
Maybe you should refer back to the definition of cultural appropriation.

Yeah, I have had this issue before. People setup some strange definitions of CA that are logically unsound and very easy to debunk. I am over here trying to talk about something else entirely which people are quick to shut down and dismiss because of the strange non nuanced definitions people have invented even though I do not necessarily prescribe to these elusive definitions. At this point, I am completely clueless about your definition.

A good indicator is that there are several people who largely only post in this thread.
HIISSSSSSSS

Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1762 on: November 04, 2018, 06:35:01 PM »
Do you have any scientific evidence for your claim about African features, or are you just going off the popular stereotype?

Maybe I should give scientific evidence that racism is real phenomenon.
Maybe you should refer back to the definition of cultural appropriation.

Yeah, I have had this issue before. People setup some strange definitions of CA that are logically unsound and very easy to debunk. I am over here trying to talk about something else entirely which people are quick to shut down and dismiss because of the strange non nuanced definitions people have invented even though I do not necessarily prescribe to these elusive definitions. At this point, I am completely clueless about your definition.

A good indicator is that there are several people who largely only post in this thread.
A good indicator of...?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Offline John Albert

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1763 on: November 04, 2018, 06:38:13 PM »
One of the anti-CA arguments seems to go something like this:

     The dominant, mainstream culture tends to oppress certain underprivileged minorities for expressing certain aspects of their culture

Some individuals of the privileged majority may adopt or partake in those same aspects of minority culture, with fewer apparent social repercussions

Therefore, it's oppressive for persons of the privileged majority to appropriate those aspects of minority culture because it's tantamount to rubbing the oppression in the minority's face

Is this an accurate representation of the line of reasoning?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 09:10:07 PM by John Albert »

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1764 on: November 04, 2018, 10:51:16 PM »
One of the anti-CA arguments seems to go something like this:

     The dominant, mainstream culture tends to oppress certain underprivileged minorities for expressing certain aspects of their culture

Some individuals of the privileged majority may adopt or partake in those same aspects of minority culture, with fewer apparent social repercussions

Therefore, it's oppressive for persons of the privileged majority to appropriate those aspects of minority culture because it's tantamount to rubbing the oppression in the minority's face

Is this an accurate representation of the line of reasoning?

Close but not quite. It is important to note that in your second premise, those individuals are not necessarily doing anything malicious. They are more than likely oblivious to what is going on. The first premise is what's oppressive about the whole thing, not the second point. The second point simply highlights the unfairness of the whole situation.

Offline John Albert

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1765 on: November 04, 2018, 11:01:34 PM »
One of the anti-CA arguments seems to go something like this:

     The dominant, mainstream culture tends to oppress certain underprivileged minorities for expressing certain aspects of their culture

Some individuals of the privileged majority may adopt or partake in those same aspects of minority culture, with fewer apparent social repercussions

Therefore, it's oppressive for persons of the privileged majority to appropriate those aspects of minority culture because it's tantamount to rubbing the oppression in the minority's face

Is this an accurate representation of the line of reasoning?

Close but not quite. It is important to note that in your second premise, those individuals are not necessarily doing anything malicious. They are more than likely oblivious to what is going on. The first premise is what's oppressive about the whole thing, not the second point. The second point simply highlights the unfairness of the whole situation.

So malicious intent is a necessary precondition for cultural appropriation?

What if no malice is intended?

What if a white person just happens to like the look of a danshiki? What if they consider wearing a danshiki a positive show of support or solidarity for their black friends?

Is it therefore not cultural appropriation?


Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1766 on: November 04, 2018, 11:49:27 PM »

So malicious intent is a necessary precondition for cultural appropriation?

That is simplifying a complex phenomenon a little bit but at its root I guess you are bang on the money. Society as a whole has to be oppressive towards minorities in the first place for CA to occur.

Quote
What if no malice is intended?

What if a white person just happens to like the look of a danshiki? What if they consider wearing a danshiki a positive show of support or solidarity for their black friends?

Is it therefore not cultural appropriation?

The constant for CA is the oppression must be there whether it be subtle or overt. I cannot detect any obvious signs of oppression in your example above. So positive cultural sharing is very likely the case.

On the other hand, if minorities were encouraged not to wear dashiki in both  social or professional settings, then yes it would turn into cultural appropriation. Especially when white people in dashiki can roam around freely.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 11:54:39 PM by haudace »

Online Harry Black

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1767 on: November 05, 2018, 04:14:36 PM »
If you wear a dashiki to honour your black friends then thats beautiful.
If you wear it after they tell you they dont find it honouring and would rather you didnt, you are a dick.

Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1768 on: November 05, 2018, 06:54:43 PM »
If you wear it after they tell you they dont find it honouring and would rather you didnt, you are a dick.

Hmmm, this is an area I haven't explored my feelings/thoughts. What do you mean exactly?

Offline John Albert

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1769 on: November 05, 2018, 08:38:37 PM »
On the other hand, if minorities were encouraged not to wear dashiki in both social or professional settings, then yes it would turn into cultural appropriation. Especially when white people in dashiki can roam around freely.

"Roaming around freely" in a given attire isn't the same as wearing the same attire in a professional setting. A white person wearing a dashiki in a formal work setting would most likely be subject to the same dress code reprimands as a black person. So would it be cultural appropriation for a white person to wear the African dashiki, or not?

First you said it requires malicious intent, then later on you said it only requires that some oppression exist.

So does cultural appropriation require malicious or oppressive intent on the part of the individual, or not?


If you wear it after they tell you they dont find it honouring and would rather you didnt, you are a dick.

This is the way I've always considered it. But it seems that different people have very different opinions about what constitutes cultural appropriation.

For example, several years ago while hanging out with a Japanese friend, I expressed interest in buying a kimono to wear as part of a Halloween costume (Ogami Itto from Lone Wolf and Cub). She loved the idea and enthusiastically volunteered to help me pick one that fits properly. We went to a Japanese import store and I found a very nice kimono that fit me well. On Halloween I wore the kimono along with a fake sword to my college classes. I received many compliments, even from some Japanese classmates. Then a few years later while wearing the same costume, I was reprimanded by some other people (who happened to be white), on the grounds that wearing a traditional Japanese garment was cultural appropriation and therefore insulting to Japanese people.

So who's right, the Japanese people who complimented the costume, or the white people who called it racist?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 05:14:14 PM by John Albert »

 

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