Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 84431 times)

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Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1815 on: March 28, 2019, 11:50:03 PM »
I've watched enough of Adam Neely's videos to know that he discusses serious music theory in an entertaining, often humorous, way (IMHO). I'm sure he's serious about this too. What did he leave out?

This guy came out of nowhere...
How were the Scots harmed? How were they oppressed by hip hop artists? Who else is complaining about this injustice?

Good questions!

Is harm to the originating culture necessary to consider something "cultural appropriation"? The research I've done so far is unclear on this point.

How is harm measured to a culture? Are Indians actually harmed by this, for instance?

Why does it matter who else is complaining?

I asked first. Please answer my questions to resolve them so that we can move on to your next point you are attempting to make.

"Why does it matter who else is complaining"

Culture implies plurality of people. That is a minimum requirement. Is your YouTube friend Adam Neely the only one complaining about the Scots snap?

My answers to your questions depend on your answers to mine, so I can't answer first.

Adam Neely is not my friend. I do subscribe to his channel, but that is the limit of our relationship. Besides, he's not complaining about the Scottish snap; he's just pointing out the gray area of CA where it exists.

So? Maybe there is no climate change / global warming because it's cold in the north pole? I am starting to think he didn't find cultural appropriation because there wasn't any in the scenarios he fabricated in the first place? I vote confirmation bias...

Unless there is a group of scottish people out there complaining they have had their heritage stolen.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 02:47:15 PM by haudace »

Offline Beleth

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1816 on: March 31, 2019, 02:48:05 PM »
I've watched enough of Adam Neely's videos to know that he discusses serious music theory in an entertaining, often humorous, way (IMHO). I'm sure he's serious about this too. What did he leave out?

This guy came out of nowhere...
How were the Scots harmed? How were they oppressed by hip hop artists? Who else is complaining about this injustice?

Good questions!

Is harm to the originating culture necessary to consider something "cultural appropriation"? The research I've done so far is unclear on this point.

How is harm measured to a culture? Are Indians actually harmed by this, for instance?

Why does it matter who else is complaining?

I asked first. Please answer my questions to resolve them so that we can move on to your next point you are attempting to make.

"Why does it matter who else is complaining"

Culture implies plurality of people. That is a minimum requirement. Is your YouTube friend Adam Neely the only one complaining about the Scots snap?

My answers to your questions depend on your answers to mine, so I can't answer first.

Adam Neely is not my friend. I do subscribe to his channel, but that is the limit of our relationship. Besides, he's not complaining about the Scottish snap; he's just pointing out the gray area of CA where it exists.

So? Maybe there is no climate change / global warming because it's cold in the north pole? I am starting to think he didn't find cultural appropriation because there wasn't any in the scenarios he fabricated in the first place? I vote confirmation bias...

Unless there is a group of scottish people out there complaining they have had their heritage stolen.

Does that mean you aren't going to answer my questions? Or should I infer from this reply that your answer to "Is harm necessary?" is "No." and your answer to "How is harm measured to a culture?" is "It isn't measured."?

If your standpoint is that culture implies plurality of people, and it takes more than one person to complain about cultural appropriation, then I would reply to that with the absurd but inevitable conclusion from those two statements is that cultural appropriation can be solved by eliminating all those who follow the appropriated culture. No one left = no one to complain = no harm done, according to your statements. That is simply ghastly and unconscionable.
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let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
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Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1817 on: March 31, 2019, 10:31:14 PM »
I've watched enough of Adam Neely's videos to know that he discusses serious music theory in an entertaining, often humorous, way (IMHO). I'm sure he's serious about this too. What did he leave out?

This guy came out of nowhere...
How were the Scots harmed? How were they oppressed by hip hop artists? Who else is complaining about this injustice?

Good questions!

Is harm to the originating culture necessary to consider something "cultural appropriation"? The research I've done so far is unclear on this point.

How is harm measured to a culture? Are Indians actually harmed by this, for instance?

Why does it matter who else is complaining?

I asked first. Please answer my questions to resolve them so that we can move on to your next point you are attempting to make.

"Why does it matter who else is complaining"

Culture implies plurality of people. That is a minimum requirement. Is your YouTube friend Adam Neely the only one complaining about the Scots snap?

My answers to your questions depend on your answers to mine, so I can't answer first.

Adam Neely is not my friend. I do subscribe to his channel, but that is the limit of our relationship. Besides, he's not complaining about the Scottish snap; he's just pointing out the gray area of CA where it exists.

So? Maybe there is no climate change / global warming because it's cold in the north pole? I am starting to think he didn't find cultural appropriation because there wasn't any in the scenarios he fabricated in the first place? I vote confirmation bias...

Unless there is a group of scottish people out there complaining they have had their heritage stolen.

Does that mean you aren't going to answer my questions? Or should I infer from this reply that your answer to "Is harm necessary?" is "No." and your answer to "How is harm measured to a culture?" is "It isn't measured."?

If your standpoint is that culture implies plurality of people, and it takes more than one person to complain about cultural appropriation, then I would reply to that with the absurd but inevitable conclusion from those two statements is that cultural appropriation can be solved by eliminating all those who follow the appropriated culture. No one left = no one to complain = no harm done, according to your statements. That is simply ghastly and unconscionable.

Not only you are putting words in my mouth, you are also not making a whole lot of sense and drawing some really strange conclusions... **shrugs**.

I am afraid I am unable to follow your thought process. Please try again.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 10:34:12 PM by haudace »

Offline John Albert

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1818 on: April 03, 2019, 01:13:07 PM »
Are Indians actually harmed by this, for instance?

As I see it, the complaint wasn't so much that Indians were being harmed, but the food being advertised as a "biryani" wasn't actually biryani. Hence it was false advertising that misinforms non-Indians about what biryani is.

There's no such thing as "vegetable biryani" because making a biryani involves simmering chopped meats in a mixture of water, oil, spices and rice to form a stock that is absorbed into the rice as it cooks.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 01:42:59 PM by John Albert »

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1819 on: April 03, 2019, 08:27:18 PM »
Are Indians actually harmed by this, for instance?

As I see it, the complaint wasn't so much that Indians were being harmed, but the food being advertised as a "biryani" wasn't actually biryani. Hence it was false advertising that misinforms non-Indians about what biryani is.

There's no such thing as "vegetable biryani" because making a biryani involves cooking chopped meats in water, spices and rice to form a stock that is absorbed into the rice.

My dad once ordered rogan josh at a restaurant, and was asked "do you want lamb, beef, or chicken?"
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Offline John Albert

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1820 on: April 05, 2019, 04:47:03 AM »
Joe Rogan Josh

Offline Captain Video

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1821 on: April 05, 2019, 07:26:11 PM »
Are Indians actually harmed by this, for instance?

As I see it, the complaint wasn't so much that Indians were being harmed, but the food being advertised as a "biryani" wasn't actually biryani. Hence it was false advertising that misinforms non-Indians about what biryani is.

There's no such thing as "vegetable biryani" because making a biryani involves cooking chopped meats in water, spices and rice to form a stock that is absorbed into the rice.

My dad once ordered rogan josh at a restaurant, and was asked "do you want lamb, beef, or chicken?"

whats wrong with that? Lots of restaurants here in the US give you those options. Usually Bangladeshi if its beef but then I found this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogan_josh

Quote
In India, rogan josh is often made with goat instead of mutton, since genuine lamb is less widely available than goat meat. There is a variety with beef as well, brisket being preferred.[16]

Also just about every Indian restaurant I have ever been too has vegetable biryani and they are all owned by people from India.
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Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1822 on: April 06, 2019, 04:27:31 PM »
Are Indians actually harmed by this, for instance?

As I see it, the complaint wasn't so much that Indians were being harmed, but the food being advertised as a "biryani" wasn't actually biryani. Hence it was false advertising that misinforms non-Indians about what biryani is.

There's no such thing as "vegetable biryani" because making a biryani involves simmering chopped meats in a mixture of water, oil, spices and rice to form a stock that is absorbed into the rice as it cooks.

Why wouldn't this particular Indian food (that I've never heard of before) be subject to evolution? If there is a demand for a vegetarian version, then such a version is very likely to appear, as Captain Video's anecdote seems to suggest. To think of a particular food as having some sort of essence seems fallacious to me. Foods and cuisines are evolving, not static.

I've learned that the tacos we eat in Sweden are very different from the ones you can find in Mexico. Apparently they are rather Swedified tacos. We used minced meat as filling, which they apparently don't in Mexico. It is also pretty common here to use sour creme as dipping, again which I understand that they don't do in Mexico either. Does this harms Mexico or Mexicans? Seems rather far-fetched to me. It is natural that foods are adapted to local conditions and demands in new places.

There is as it happens a distinction between sushi in Japan and Western-style sushi. Again, I find this hard to object to, and have a hard time to understand why others would find it objectionable.
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Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1823 on: April 06, 2019, 08:48:46 PM »
Lol this conversation is going places.

Look, no one is mad someone else is borrowing aspect of another culture. There is nothing wrong with that. The issue is very simple, for instance when you take on someone's hairstyle for fashion don't turn around and call a minority that also uses the same fashion "ratchet" or "ghetto" or something else. Just let it be. It really is that simple. That is the face of cultural appropriation.

There is no ethereal or some high next level concept that requires transcendal understanding.

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1824 on: April 07, 2019, 07:08:36 AM »
Are Indians actually harmed by this, for instance?

As I see it, the complaint wasn't so much that Indians were being harmed, but the food being advertised as a "biryani" wasn't actually biryani. Hence it was false advertising that misinforms non-Indians about what biryani is.

There's no such thing as "vegetable biryani" because making a biryani involves simmering chopped meats in a mixture of water, oil, spices and rice to form a stock that is absorbed into the rice as it cooks.

I've learned that the tacos we eat in Sweden are very different from the ones you can find in Mexico. Apparently they are rather Swedified tacos. We used minced meat as filling, which they apparently don't in Mexico. It is also pretty common here to use sour creme as dipping, again which I understand that they don't do in Mexico either. Does this harms Mexico or Mexicans? Seems rather far-fetched to me. It is natural that foods are adapted to local conditions and demands in new places.

Hell, the tacos we eat here in the US aren't particularly Mexican either...and we can walk there from here.


When I was in Mexico, the two times I can remember having tacos they were corn tortillas (not flour); one was just shredded goat and refried beans (the goat was roasting on a spit in the front window of the place we were eating), the other was grilled fish, onions and peppers. We were significantly further south for the second taco IIRC it was somewhere in Veracruz, or maybe as far north as Tampico.  The second place seemed a bit more American than the first, so maybe it wasn't that traditional.






To the topic.  The U.S. in particular has always been a hodge-podge of cultures blending together.  You don't get that without some "appropriation".  I'm a white boy in Kentucky and I make my own Kimchi, Sauerkraut and Doro Wat (without the injera, I haven't gotten the hang of that yet).  I don't eat all of those at the same time, I was just trying to name three cultural foods that I make.  A few weeks ago I made Chicken Marrakesh over Israeli couscous for my lunches....that meal in itself is a cultural abomination; but it's good.  Either way, I don't claim to be Korean, German, Ethiopian, Moroccan (not that Chicken Marrakesh is from Morocco it's a dish inspired by Morocco), or Israeli.

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Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1825 on: April 07, 2019, 09:48:13 AM »
Are Indians actually harmed by this, for instance?

As I see it, the complaint wasn't so much that Indians were being harmed, but the food being advertised as a "biryani" wasn't actually biryani. Hence it was false advertising that misinforms non-Indians about what biryani is.

There's no such thing as "vegetable biryani" because making a biryani involves simmering chopped meats in a mixture of water, oil, spices and rice to form a stock that is absorbed into the rice as it cooks.

I've learned that the tacos we eat in Sweden are very different from the ones you can find in Mexico. Apparently they are rather Swedified tacos. We used minced meat as filling, which they apparently don't in Mexico. It is also pretty common here to use sour creme as dipping, again which I understand that they don't do in Mexico either. Does this harms Mexico or Mexicans? Seems rather far-fetched to me. It is natural that foods are adapted to local conditions and demands in new places.

Hell, the tacos we eat here in the US aren't particularly Mexican either...and we can walk there from here.


When I was in Mexico, the two times I can remember having tacos they were corn tortillas (not flour); one was just shredded goat and refried beans (the goat was roasting on a spit in the front window of the place we were eating), the other was grilled fish, onions and peppers. We were significantly further south for the second taco IIRC it was somewhere in Veracruz, or maybe as far north as Tampico.  The second place seemed a bit more American than the first, so maybe it wasn't that traditional.






To the topic.  The U.S. in particular has always been a hodge-podge of cultures blending together.  You don't get that without some "appropriation".  I'm a white boy in Kentucky and I make my own Kimchi, Sauerkraut and Doro Wat (without the injera, I haven't gotten the hang of that yet).  I don't eat all of those at the same time, I was just trying to name three cultural foods that I make.  A few weeks ago I made Chicken Marrakesh over Israeli couscous for my lunches....that meal in itself is a cultural abomination; but it's good.  Either way, I don't claim to be Korean, German, Ethiopian, Moroccan (not that Chicken Marrakesh is from Morocco it's a dish inspired by Morocco), or Israeli.

That is all well and good. But I am confused about the underlined part. Why is it a cultural abomination if you like it?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 09:53:23 AM by haudace »

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1826 on: April 07, 2019, 09:57:50 AM »
As far as I know, it's not actually Moroccan but the flavors are inspired by Moroccan cuisine.  Also, in Morocco, you wouldn't use Israeli couscous, you would use the smaller version.  That makes it a fusion-inspired hybrid created by people outside of the culture which inspired it.  It's kinda like in the US where we serve bolognese with spaghetti, which they would never do in Italy and we call it Italian food.  It's a cultural abomination.  Still tasty, and there's nothing wrong with that.  Anyway, I prefer the larger couscous for dishes that I'm going to be re-heating for lunches.  I find that it holds up to the microwave a little better for texture.


I think of it like when my father was alive, when he would come up here from Florida for the summers, he loved this one Chinese buffet we have in town because of the all-you-can-eat crab legs on the weekends.  The bar also has pizza and meatloaf on it.  It's just weird.  I'm not saying don't do it, it's just weird.
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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1827 on: April 07, 2019, 10:03:55 AM »
You know, now that I'm thinking about it, I think you are reading more into my use of "abomination" than I meant.  Having played a few years of World of Darkness games, I think of the term a little differently, I guess.  I was thinking that from a cultural purity standpoint, anytime something is blended in it is made impure, or an abomination.  So, mixing Japanese with Mexican is an abomination (a tasty, tasty abomination). I don't believe purity is something to strive for, so I don't have any negative connotations to it.
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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1828 on: April 07, 2019, 10:05:36 AM »
Sorry about the triple post.


But, on a non-food front for cultural appropriate.  How about Lil Nas X's Old Town Road?  Is that song country?  Is it Trap?  Should it be on the country charts, or is it racist that it isn't?
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Offline haudace

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #1829 on: April 07, 2019, 10:11:09 AM »
As far as I know, it's not actually Moroccan but the flavors are inspired by Moroccan cuisine.  Also, in Morocco, you wouldn't use Israeli couscous, you would use the smaller version.  That makes it a fusion-inspired hybrid created by people outside of the culture which inspired it.  It's kinda like in the US where we serve bolognese with spaghetti, which they would never do in Italy and we call it Italian food.  It's a cultural abomination.  Still tasty, and there's nothing wrong with that.  Anyway, I prefer the larger couscous for dishes that I'm going to be re-heating for lunches.  I find that it holds up to the microwave a little better for texture.


I think of it like when my father was alive, when he would come up here from Florida for the summers, he loved this one Chinese buffet we have in town because of the all-you-can-eat crab legs on the weekends.  The bar also has pizza and meatloaf on it.  It's just weird.  I'm not saying don't do it, it's just weird.

TIL bolognese + spaghetti =/= italian.


Can you also clarify one more thing for me? So has the US phased out some Italian spaghetti dish and replaced it with bolognese + spaghetti?

Edit:
Quote
You know, now that I'm thinking about it, I think you are reading more into my use of "abomination" than I meant.  Having played a few years of World of Darkness games, I think of the term a little differently, I guess.  I was thinking that from a cultural purity standpoint, anytime something is blended in it is made impure, or an abomination.  So, mixing Japanese with Mexican is an abomination (a tasty, tasty abomination). I don't believe purity is something to strive for, so I don't have any negative connotations to it.

Ah - I might have interpreted your comment in an unintended way. I associate very strong negative connotations to the term abomination. It is hard for me to get around it.

But I think I know what you mean a little bit, not fully but a little bit.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 10:16:29 AM by haudace »