Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 92083 times)

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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #90 on: April 04, 2017, 08:03:26 PM »
Yeah, and as alluded to in my previous novel-length post, Ireland is particularly problematic because or the presence of the "nation" of Irish-Americans who started with Irish pride but morphed it into something that's their own a long, long time ago. I mean, that don't excuse St. Paddy's Day (and really, nothing will *ever* to me excuse the city of Chicago coloring the river green for a week) but we're not even really culturally appropriating *Ireland* so much as we are our own Irish-American subculture. Well, we're doing the latter as well I guess, unless leprechauns really are as numerous as I have been led to believe...

A decade ago we would have said "celebrating" the culture.
Good thing we as skeptics know better than to argue that the way we did things a decade ago is correct because it's the way we did things a decade ago, because that would be a facile argument.

Good thing skeptics don't just jump glom onto every bit of PC nonsense that comes along.
Setting aside the well-poisoning of "PC nonsense" you're still not arguing against he idea on any merit. You've declared it wrong, fished out an extreme example to damn the entire idea (guilt by association), made an argument from (I dunno, is ten years ago antiquity or status quo?), and attempted well-poisoning. What you haven't done is to actually engage at all beyond declaring it wrong and making facile, illogical arguments. Meanwhile, the people you're dismissing as bandwagon idiots have given real and representative examples, argued the harm, and yet you're still sticking to your ideology instead.

Instead of acting like an angry creationist, why not blow our collective minds through skeptical examination? Wow us all with reasoned arguments against the idea. You know, like a skeptic. 
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Online jt512

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #91 on: April 04, 2017, 09:04:11 PM »
Yeah, and as alluded to in my previous novel-length post, Ireland is particularly problematic because or the presence of the "nation" of Irish-Americans who started with Irish pride but morphed it into something that's their own a long, long time ago. I mean, that don't excuse St. Paddy's Day (and really, nothing will *ever* to me excuse the city of Chicago coloring the river green for a week) but we're not even really culturally appropriating *Ireland* so much as we are our own Irish-American subculture. Well, we're doing the latter as well I guess, unless leprechauns really are as numerous as I have been led to believe...

A decade ago we would have said "celebrating" the culture.
Good thing we as skeptics know better than to argue that the way we did things a decade ago is correct because it's the way we did things a decade ago, because that would be a facile argument.

Good thing skeptics don't just jump glom onto every bit of PC nonsense that comes along.
Setting aside the well-poisoning of "PC nonsense" you're still not arguing against he idea on any merit. You've declared it wrong, fished out an extreme example to damn the entire idea (guilt by association), made an argument from (I dunno, is ten years ago antiquity or status quo?), and attempted well-poisoning. What you haven't done is to actually engage at all beyond declaring it wrong and making facile, illogical arguments. Meanwhile, the people you're dismissing as bandwagon idiots have given real and representative examples, argued the harm, and yet you're still sticking to your ideology instead.

Instead of acting like an angry creationist, why not blow our collective minds through skeptical examination? Wow us all with reasoned arguments against the idea. You know, like a skeptic.

Since you're such a good skeptic, let me know how to prove a negative, and I'll get right back to you.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #92 on: April 04, 2017, 09:07:59 PM »
Yeah, and as alluded to in my previous novel-length post, Ireland is particularly problematic because or the presence of the "nation" of Irish-Americans who started with Irish pride but morphed it into something that's their own a long, long time ago. I mean, that don't excuse St. Paddy's Day (and really, nothing will *ever* to me excuse the city of Chicago coloring the river green for a week) but we're not even really culturally appropriating *Ireland* so much as we are our own Irish-American subculture. Well, we're doing the latter as well I guess, unless leprechauns really are as numerous as I have been led to believe...

A decade ago we would have said "celebrating" the culture.
Good thing we as skeptics know better than to argue that the way we did things a decade ago is correct because it's the way we did things a decade ago, because that would be a facile argument.

Good thing skeptics don't just jump glom onto every bit of PC nonsense that comes along.
Setting aside the well-poisoning of "PC nonsense" you're still not arguing against he idea on any merit. You've declared it wrong, fished out an extreme example to damn the entire idea (guilt by association), made an argument from (I dunno, is ten years ago antiquity or status quo?), and attempted well-poisoning. What you haven't done is to actually engage at all beyond declaring it wrong and making facile, illogical arguments. Meanwhile, the people you're dismissing as bandwagon idiots have given real and representative examples, argued the harm, and yet you're still sticking to your ideology instead.

Instead of acting like an angry creationist, why not blow our collective minds through skeptical examination? Wow us all with reasoned arguments against the idea. You know, like a skeptic.

Since you're such a good skeptic, let me know how to prove a negative, and I'll get right back to you.
You won't have to, but you could make your case by disproving what has been laid out in favor, and the proceed to making your case for "PC nonsense" being an actual thing and not just a symptom of cranky old caterwampuss syndrome.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #93 on: April 04, 2017, 09:19:38 PM »
I think there is legitimacy to the notion of Cultural Appropriation, and genuine harm in some examples.

But I also think there is genuine harm done to society by stoking the culture war, which we do when we make CA a high priority issue.

I think we need to pick our battles.
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Online D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #94 on: April 04, 2017, 09:30:41 PM »


I think there is legitimacy to the notion of Cultural Appropriation, and genuine harm in some examples.

Are there any examples of CA which aren't already covered by DBAD?


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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #95 on: April 04, 2017, 09:39:51 PM »


I think there is legitimacy to the notion of Cultural Appropriation, and genuine harm in some examples.

Are there any examples of CA which aren't already covered by DBAD?


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Not remotely, just as you can't cover all skepticism with "Use your head." Vague statements that rely on subjective personal values are utterly worthless as general metrics, and are best used to chastise people who are being a fuckknuckle.

For example: you're acting like a diploid.

Or put another way, no, because the dicks in question don't think they're being dicks.
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #96 on: April 04, 2017, 09:41:36 PM »


I think there is legitimacy to the notion of Cultural Appropriation, and genuine harm in some examples.

Are there any examples of CA which aren't already covered by DBAD?


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To be fair, don't be a dick isn't an objective guideline with clear interpretations.  If there were a situation where cultural appreciation alone made one a dick, that'd be something.
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #97 on: April 04, 2017, 09:44:44 PM »
I'm still not quite seeing how St Patrick's day celebrations hurt the Irish.  I mean besides alcohol poisoning.
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #98 on: April 04, 2017, 10:29:31 PM »
I'm still not quite seeing how St Patrick's day celebrations hurt the Irish.  I mean besides alcohol poisoning.
You honestly can't see how stereotyping Irish people as violent drunks is harmful?
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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #99 on: April 04, 2017, 10:31:47 PM »
Oh come now. Just ordinary drunks.

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #100 on: April 04, 2017, 10:32:31 PM »
If you want a violent Irish stereotype, look to the University of Notre Dame.

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Online jt512

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #101 on: April 04, 2017, 10:42:42 PM »
I'm still not quite seeing how St Patrick's day celebrations hurt the Irish.  I mean besides alcohol poisoning.
You honestly can't see how stereotyping Irish people as violent drunks is harmful?

St. Patrick's Day stereotypes Irish people as violent drunks?  That's news to me.
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Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #102 on: April 04, 2017, 10:47:55 PM »
I'm still not quite seeing how St Patrick's day celebrations hurt the Irish.  I mean besides alcohol poisoning.
You honestly can't see how stereotyping Irish people as violent drunks is harmful?

St. Patrick's Day stereotypes Irish people as violent drunks?  That's news to me.
News to me too.  Australia must celebrate much differently. 

Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #103 on: April 04, 2017, 10:53:59 PM »
Pretty much everything I see about St Patrick's Day in America is about people getting drunk and getting into fights. That's what Irish people do, isn't it? Get drunk and get into fights?

But okay, skip the "violent" part then.

You can't see how stereotyping Irish people as drunks is harmful?
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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #104 on: April 04, 2017, 10:57:59 PM »


I think there is legitimacy to the notion of Cultural Appropriation, and genuine harm in some examples.

Are there any examples of CA which aren't already covered by DBAD?


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To be fair, don't be a dick isn't an objective guideline with clear interpretations. If there were a situation where cultural appreciation alone made one a dick, that'd be something.

DBAD is indeed subjective, but at least it has an implicit intent element. CA is whatever cultural borrowings happen to offend.



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