Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 93476 times)

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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #105 on: April 04, 2017, 10:59:52 PM »
Pretty much everything I see about St Patrick's Day in America is about people getting drunk and getting into fights. That's what Irish people do, isn't it? Get drunk and get into fights?

But okay, skip the "violent" part then.

You can't see how stereotyping Irish people as drunks is harmful?

As a native Chicagoan, I have to confess that our version of St. Paddy’s is essentially a drinking holiday. For us, though. We don't serious expect the Irish to keep up.


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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #106 on: April 04, 2017, 11:10:07 PM »
Howabout you watch the video and share your thoughts?

Middle-class urban-dwelling bandwidth privilege, rearing its ugly head.

If you don't want to watch the video (fair enough, I have been on limited bandwidth too at times), try reading the article I posted on the first page and give us your reactions to that instead.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #107 on: April 04, 2017, 11:58:24 PM »


I think there is legitimacy to the notion of Cultural Appropriation, and genuine harm in some examples.

Are there any examples of CA which aren't already covered by DBAD?


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"Cultural Appropriation" has a place as a concept, because it's definition can be coherently stated and it can even be observed in reality. That is frankly way more than what's necessary to have a place as a concept.

That being said...

My instinctive feeling, which you may take for whatever you find it to be worth, is that discussing things in terms of this concept, though it can be somewhat illuminating, doesn't justify the distance it places between us and the solution to the largest and most desperate struggles within American culture at this time.
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Offline Pusher Robot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2017, 01:44:20 AM »
If the Irish didn't want to be renowned for drinking, then they shouldn't have invented whiskey.

Cultural appropriating may be a useful academic concept but it's real world use had often been to get attention by using it to object to things that really aren't objectionable,  or implying bad faith when it isn't necessary.

P.S. Much enjoyed my recent trip to Dublin etc.
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Offline Caffiene

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2017, 02:58:01 AM »
I do hear alot of whining about how America created a bastardised and patronising version of our culture though and how an American beer company deciding that our national holiday (on which drinking was prohibited) would be the day when everyone gets pissed,thus cementing the idea of my people as fucking alcoholics in the minds eye of the world.

How prevalent is that negative opinion of St Patricks as a drinking event?

I wont say they "are" Irish, but I know the Irish Chamber of Commerce in Melbourne happily has St Patrick's Day events that involve starting on the Guinness at about 7am, including many who if not still Irish were at least recently enough that they had strong Irish accents.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2017, 03:59:38 AM »
Again, I mention the Irish example because its highly visible, but what it lacks is the factor of the people involved being cut out of the picture and the good ideas they bring being taken.
This is mostly because Irish people are mostly white christians.
Non white people have to deal with the same process but then dont get to be seen as equals by those 'celebrating' them.

Offline jt512

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2017, 04:10:24 AM »
Again, I mention the Irish example because its highly visible, but what it lacks is the factor of the people involved being cut out of the picture and the good ideas they bring being taken.
This is mostly because Irish people are mostly white christians.
Non white people have to deal with the same process but then dont get to be seen as equals by those 'celebrating' them.

Huh?
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #112 on: April 05, 2017, 06:37:19 AM »
Again, I mention the Irish example because its highly visible, but what it lacks is the factor of the people involved being cut out of the picture and the good ideas they bring being taken.
This is mostly because Irish people are mostly white christians.
Non white people have to deal with the same process but then dont get to be seen as equals by those 'celebrating' them.

Huh?
As I alluded to earlier when I talked about (for example) asian people being deleted from stories involving asian culture, most notably martial arts movies.
The mighty whitey trope.

Edit- Goddamn it. Somehow 'asian culture' corrected to '80's culture' and I missed it at first post.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 11:30:10 AM by Harry Black »

Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #113 on: April 05, 2017, 08:46:11 AM »




I think there is legitimacy to the notion of Cultural Appropriation, and genuine harm in some examples.

Are there any examples of CA which aren't already covered by DBAD?


"Cultural Appropriation" has a place as a concept, because it's definition can be coherently stated and it can even be observed in reality.

Which is why we've been discussing fictional examples of cultural appropriation from Tim Burton, Spike Lee, and Amiri Baraka. Come now. Rather few attempts have been made to provide observations from the real world. One might suppose this is because they are going to turn out to be fairly pedestrian.

Except maybe Dolezal. She's a doozy.

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Online superdave

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #114 on: April 05, 2017, 08:57:01 AM »




I think there is legitimacy to the notion of Cultural Appropriation, and genuine harm in some examples.

Are there any examples of CA which aren't already covered by DBAD?


"Cultural Appropriation" has a place as a concept, because it's definition can be coherently stated and it can even be observed in reality.

Which is why we've been discussing fictional examples of cultural appropriation from Tim Burton, Spike Lee, and Amiri Baraka. Come now. Rather few attempts have been made to provide observations from the real world. One might suppose this is because they are going to turn out to be fairly pedestrian.

Except maybe Dolezal. She's a doozy.

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I find that like microagressions and privilege, this concept works better to describe an aggregate of behaviors rather than individual acts.  It's more like climate than it is weather. 

But that said, I started off the thread, in the very first post, with some examples.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2017, 09:29:19 AM »
But that said, I started off the thread, in the very first post, with some examples.

Fair cop, Superdave. Your real world examples have been underdiscussed, presumably because they do not lend themselves to the sort of sustained moral outrage which makes the idea of cultural appropriation popular.

The musical examples, in particular, seem to support my view that people from one culture freely borrowing ideas from another one tends to produce more good than harm.

Here are a few more musical examples, from my personal stash:

https://www.amazon.com/Light-Zion-Haor-Mitzion/dp/B004HKIQQY

https://www.amazon.com/Live-At-Stubbs-Matisyahu/dp/B000AA3SAE/ref=ntt_mus_ep_dpi_8

https://www.amazon.com/So-Called-Seder-Hip-Haggadah/dp/B0009VI5MA

I may be in the minority here, but I'm happy to hear music which combines elements from disparate cultures.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 09:37:59 AM by D4M10N »

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #116 on: April 05, 2017, 09:41:47 AM »
Pretty much everything I see about St Patrick's Day in America is about people getting drunk and getting into fights. That's what Irish people do, isn't it? Get drunk and get into fights?

But okay, skip the "violent" part then.

You can't see how stereotyping Irish people as drunks is harmful?

During a holiday where everybody drinks, in societies that love their alcohol?  I imagine it's "harmful" in the sense that you'd be a fool to short sell whoever makes Killian's.
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #117 on: April 05, 2017, 09:47:56 AM »
Again, I mention the Irish example because its highly visible, but what it lacks is the factor of the people involved being cut out of the picture and the good ideas they bring being taken.
This is mostly because Irish people are mostly white christians.
Non white people have to deal with the same process but then dont get to be seen as equals by those 'celebrating' them.

Huh?
As I alluded to earlier when I talked about (for example) asian people being deleted from stories involving 80s culture, most notably martial arts movies.
The mighty whitey trope.

Hey, here's a tangible example worth discussing!  Whitewashing as a form of cultural appropriation.  Of course, every culture does this: Indian Idol anyone?  Is the Magnificent Seven problematic or harmful to Japanese culture because it's a blatant rip off of Seven Samurai?  Or perhaps the legal battle that ensured as a result of Nadia: Secret of Blue Water and Atlantis: The Lost Empire?  Well, actually that's more IP laws, and so somewhat separate because it's an issue for reasons other than cultural appropriation.  I think the Seven Samurai example is probably a better one for discussion.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #118 on: April 05, 2017, 09:51:21 AM »
The recurring theme of the attempted rebuttal being "this doesn't effect me, so I don't see why it's a problem."
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Offline 6EQUJ5

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #119 on: April 05, 2017, 09:57:04 AM »
The recurring theme of the attempted rebuttal being "this doesn't effect me, so I don't see why it's a problem."

THIS. The prevailing attitude on here for conversations about intersectionality.
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