Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 90392 times)

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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #195 on: April 07, 2017, 04:23:49 PM »


"Well, sometimes a dominant or privileged culture takes something from a less powerful one and treats it abusively, like white people wearing Native Headdresses..."

In your view, what sort of cultural or racial background must one have in order to wear a native headdress without being accused of crossing the line from cultural exchange into abusive appropriation of culture?

Are the folks pictured here too white for your tastes? Are you in a good position to dictate who is too white to a tribe of people who have deliberately dropped blood quantum requirements for membership?

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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #196 on: April 07, 2017, 04:31:42 PM »
"If I strawman the concept enpugh, maybe everyone else will just give up"
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #197 on: April 07, 2017, 04:45:03 PM »
"If I strawman the concept enpugh, maybe everyone else will just give up"
"If we put our strawmen in quotes, maybe people will find them more persuasive."

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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #198 on: April 07, 2017, 04:52:29 PM »
"If I strawman the concept enpugh, maybe everyone else will just give up"
"If we put our strawmen in quotes, maybe people will find them more persuasive."

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No no, a strawman is when you misrepresent what the other side is arguing for as a means of arguing against it. Example: pretending that anyone here is setting themselves up as he arbiter of who is two white, or as though that's germane to the topic at all.

What I did was to use quotes to accuse you of strawmanning the concept and of arguing in bad faith. I did so by attributing a motive (making everyone else just get tired of responding to someone who isn't actually engaging with anyone, but with presenting a continually shifting series of denials and misrepresentations) but that does not constitute a strawman because I didn't misrepresent your argument at all.

At least make an effort to understand your fallacies.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #199 on: April 07, 2017, 04:56:18 PM »


No no, a strawman is when you misrepresent what the other side is arguing for as a means of arguing against it. Example: pretending that anyone here is setting themselves up as he arbiter of who is two white, or as though that's germane to the topic at all.

"Well, sometimes a dominant or privileged culture takes something from a less powerful one and treats it abusively, like white people wearing Native Headdresses..."


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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #200 on: April 07, 2017, 04:58:18 PM »


No no, a strawman is when you misrepresent what the other side is arguing for as a means of arguing against it. Example: pretending that anyone here is setting themselves up as he arbiter of who is two white, or as though that's germane to the topic at all.

"Well, sometimes a dominant or privileged culture takes something from a less powerful one and treats it abusively, like white people wearing Native Headdresses..."


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The strawman is when you took that and decided that Redamare was therefore claiming to be the authority on who was too white. You can tell it's a strawman because that's not in his post anywhere, but was the core of your reply.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #201 on: April 07, 2017, 05:07:16 PM »
Seriously, though, what is the point of creating a morally valanced category if you don’t claim to be in a position to say who has run afoul of the moral norm you're trying to propagate?


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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #202 on: April 07, 2017, 05:15:24 PM »


Seriously, though, what is the point of creating a morally valanced category if you don’t claim to be in a position to say who has run afoul of the moral norm you're trying to propagate?


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How are you arriving at this as a conclusion as what has been discussed in the thread?

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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #203 on: April 07, 2017, 05:20:36 PM »
Notice the question mark.


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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #204 on: April 07, 2017, 05:25:43 PM »


[quote name="D4M10N" post=9490140 timestamp=1491599236]
 creating a morally valanced category  [and] claim[ing] to be in a position to say who has run afoul of the moral norm
[/quote]

To ask the question you asked, you are presuming the above statement to be representative of the goals of the people in this thread. I am asking you how you came to the conclusion that he above statement is representative of the goals of he people in this thread.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #205 on: April 07, 2017, 05:28:03 PM »
Look, I'm not the one saying “white people” should be condemned for wearing native dress. That was someone else. Possibly he is a member of a tribe with a strong opinion about who should wear his tribe’s traditional dress. I don't know. At any rate, the moral condemnation makes no sense if he cannot clearly delineate who is at fault for being both white and appropriative.


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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #206 on: April 07, 2017, 05:32:12 PM »


At any rate, the moral condemnation makes no sense if he cannot clearly delineate who is at fault for being both white and appropriative.

[Citation needed]

In the future, please refrain from inserting your own conclusions in as though they are someone else's conclusions and expecting other people to justify your conclusions.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #207 on: April 07, 2017, 05:40:41 PM »
Given your penchant for fake quotations, this advice is simply hilarious.

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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #208 on: April 07, 2017, 06:29:50 PM »
To the semantic point:

If I am having a conversation with somebody on these forums, I can pretty safely assume that they have spent a good deal of time reading/conversing/listening on social justice topics--so I can also safely assume that if they are wanting to talk about cultural appropriation, it's about the negative examples. I have no problem with folks using the term as shorthand in such context.

What I am arguing against is the idea that this is now the proper definition, because if you're talking to somebody no so well versed in social justice topics, and you talk as if "cultural appropriation" only refers to negative examples, then you're going to end up having to trudge through a conversation about how not all examples of cultural appropriation are bad.

TLDR: use the words however you want, but don't assume everybody else knows your modified definition, because it will be confusing to many.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #209 on: April 07, 2017, 06:34:58 PM »
Im not being sarcastic when I say that I can only see that being a problem if the person has similar musical training to yourself.
The term is either alien to everyone Ive ever met or immediately recognisable as the issue we are discussing here.
Ymmv of course but I just have not found it to be a problem.

 

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