Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 90468 times)

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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #240 on: April 08, 2017, 04:09:14 PM »
The specific part where you said "hard to find fault unless they're deliberately mocking"
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #241 on: April 08, 2017, 04:14:37 PM »
And you've somehow convinced yourself that I actually meant to say that my feelings are at odds with those expressed in the OP (not so much) and moreover that my feelings invalidate his feelings.

Fascinating.


Offline The Latinist

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #242 on: April 08, 2017, 04:40:30 PM »
There are people who experience genuine emotional pain when someone else dares to blaspheme or merely criticize their prophet or god. All they require is that blasphemers and critics stop and apologize. Why is that so much to ask?

It's not.  They're perfectly within their rights to ask that.  And others are perfectly within their rights to ignore them and continue to cause them offense, especially if they feel they have good reason.  But they won't be doing it unintentionally any more.  And others might be justified in criticizing them, especially if their blasphemy was merely fashionable and not done with a specific purpose—say, to promote positive social change.  I am not denying that sometimes there may be reasons to cause others offense in pursuit of a larger goal, and I don't think anyone else is doing that either.  What we're saying is that such actions do cause harm that one should be aware of and that one must consider when deciding whether to take such an action.
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Offline nameofthewave

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #243 on: April 08, 2017, 04:56:51 PM »
There are people who experience genuine emotional pain when someone else dares to blaspheme or merely criticize their prophet or god. All they require is that blasphemers and critics stop and apologize. Why is that so much to ask?

It's not.  They're perfectly within their rights to ask that.  And others are perfectly within their rights to ignore them and continue to cause them offense, especially if they feel they have good reason.  But they won't be doing it unintentionally any more.  And others might be justified in criticizing them, especially if their blasphemy was merely fashionable and not done with a specific purpose—say, to promote positive social change.  I am not denying that sometimes there may be reasons to cause others offense in pursuit of a larger goal, and I don't think anyone else is doing that either.  What we're saying is that such actions do cause harm that one should be aware of and that one must consider when deciding whether to take such an action.

Does being able to take the piss out of religion, in the form of satire, fall into the category of promoting positive social change? What about "difficult-to-measure benefits to society that result from being able to criticise/send up/satirise anything that is in the public domain"? I guess its the "not ok if its not done with a specific purpose" bit I'd take exception to.

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #244 on: April 08, 2017, 04:58:53 PM »
Purposeful antagonism is a different conversation than cultural appropriation, but in general one should have a good reason for attacking a different thing. Mocking someone else's religion just because it makes you feel better isn't a good reason to do so on it's own.
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Offline nameofthewave

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #245 on: April 08, 2017, 08:28:35 PM »
Purposeful antagonism is a different conversation than cultural appropriation, but in general one should have a good reason for attacking a different thing. Mocking someone else's religion just because it makes you feel better isn't a good reason to do so on it's own.

Sorry, off topic I know, but I'd have to disagree. There are religious people who find the mere existence of religious satire offensive. Such satire does not need any reason to exist or justify its existence, unless that reason is the fact that some folks are demanding it should remain taboo for no good reason other than it causes them offence. Is that a circular argument?

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #246 on: April 08, 2017, 08:32:47 PM »
Purposeful antagonism is a different conversation than cultural appropriation, but in general one should have a good reason for attacking a different thing. Mocking someone else's religion just because it makes you feel better isn't a good reason to do so on it's own.

Sorry, off topic I know, but I'd have to disagree. There are religious people who find the mere existence of religious satire offensive. Such satire does not need any reason to exist or justify its existence, unless that reason is the fact that some folks are demanding it should remain taboo for no good reason other than it causes them offence. Is that a circular argument?
Satire absolutely needs a reason to justify it's existence, otherwise it isn't satire but mockery. If you're mocking someone else's beliefs only because you think they need to be taken down a peg, you're an asshole.
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Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #247 on: April 08, 2017, 10:12:07 PM »
Purposeful antagonism is a different conversation than cultural appropriation, but in general one should have a good reason for attacking a different thing. Mocking someone else's religion just because it makes you feel better isn't a good reason to do so on it's own.

Sorry, off topic I know, but I'd have to disagree. There are religious people who find the mere existence of religious satire offensive. Such satire does not need any reason to exist or justify its existence, unless that reason is the fact that some folks are demanding it should remain taboo for no good reason other than it causes them offence. Is that a circular argument?
Satire absolutely needs a reason to justify it's existence, otherwise it isn't satire but mockery. If you're mocking someone else's beliefs only because you think they need to be taken down a peg, you're an asshole.
Yeah, this is like comedy 101, isn't it? Punching down isn't cool. If you're making fun of Muslims because they're poor and stupid, or even Islam as a whole because it's practiced by poor and stupid people, then yes, you're kind of a dick, aren't you? Whereas even the people who I think cross that line will make a point to talk about, for example, the shitty things that people do in the name of Islam, or because organized religion is like the drug of the masses or something, or whatever, because even *they* understand intrinsically that you do not just mock for the sake of mocking.

This thread is beginning to take on eerie similarities to that "why is there not a conservative comedy movement" thread we had a couple months ago...
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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #248 on: April 08, 2017, 10:17:13 PM »
This current discussion is much more valuable than an organically semantic debate about clarity of terminology when speaking with folks generally outside of social justice circles....

 :P
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #249 on: April 08, 2017, 10:19:12 PM »
This current discussion is much more valuable than an organically semantic debate about clarity of terminology when speaking with folks generally outside of social justice circles....

 
If you encounter a situation wherein changing the words solves the problem, by all means observe and report how much progress you make by changing the word. I have never encountered this, and maintain my position that the word doesn't matter because the objection is not a result of confusion.
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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #250 on: April 08, 2017, 10:20:21 PM »
This current discussion is much more valuable than an organically semantic debate about clarity of terminology when speaking with folks generally outside of social justice circles....

 
If you encounter a situation wherein changing the words solves the problem, by all means observe and report how much progress you make by changing the word. I have never encountered this, and maintain my position that the word doesn't matter because the objection is not a result of confusion.

I was talking about a situation wherein discussing the definitions would avoid a problem.

I prefer it to the name-calling silliness going on, but hey, you do you.
Strange women lying in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government.

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #251 on: April 08, 2017, 10:25:13 PM »
This current discussion is much more valuable than an organically semantic debate about clarity of terminology when speaking with folks generally outside of social justice circles....

 
If you encounter a situation wherein changing the words solves the problem, by all means observe and report how much progress you make by changing the word. I have never encountered this, and maintain my position that the word doesn't matter because the objection is not a result of confusion.

I was talking about a situation wherein discussing the definitions would avoid a problem.

I prefer it to the name-calling silliness going on, but hey, you do you.
Have you encountered such a situation, and made progress by explaining the words?
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Offline nameofthewave

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #252 on: April 08, 2017, 10:29:52 PM »
Purposeful antagonism is a different conversation than cultural appropriation, but in general one should have a good reason for attacking a different thing. Mocking someone else's religion just because it makes you feel better isn't a good reason to do so on it's own.

Sorry, off topic I know, but I'd have to disagree. There are religious people who find the mere existence of religious satire offensive. Such satire does not need any reason to exist or justify its existence, unless that reason is the fact that some folks are demanding it should remain taboo for no good reason other than it causes them offence. Is that a circular argument?
Satire absolutely needs a reason to justify it's existence, otherwise it isn't satire but mockery. If you're mocking someone else's beliefs only because you think they need to be taken down a peg, you're an asshole.

Satire *is* just a form of mockery. If it has a more general, harder to define purpose (e.g. undermining the taboo of being able to criticise aspects of religion and related ideas) rather than a specific one, ultimately the defenders of the targets of your satire may vehemently disagree with your justification of it, or argue that the justification is weak, and thereby view it as purposeful antagonism.

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #253 on: April 08, 2017, 10:32:44 PM »
Purposeful antagonism is a different conversation than cultural appropriation, but in general one should have a good reason for attacking a different thing. Mocking someone else's religion just because it makes you feel better isn't a good reason to do so on it's own.

Sorry, off topic I know, but I'd have to disagree. There are religious people who find the mere existence of religious satire offensive. Such satire does not need any reason to exist or justify its existence, unless that reason is the fact that some folks are demanding it should remain taboo for no good reason other than it causes them offence. Is that a circular argument?
Satire absolutely needs a reason to justify it's existence, otherwise it isn't satire but mockery. If you're mocking someone else's beliefs only because you think they need to be taken down a peg, you're an asshole.

Satire *is* just a form of mockery. If it has a more general, harder to define purpose (e.g. undermining the taboo of being able to criticise aspects of religion and related ideas) rather than a specific one, ultimately the defenders of the targets of your satire may vehemently disagree with your justification of it, or argue that the justification is weak, and thereby view it as purposeful antagonism.
Hang on, because we're doing some wordplay here that's obfuscating the issue.

According to you, you are advocating mocking something that a person holds dear, because you think it's wrong for them to hold that thing dear. The justification for mocking the thing this person holds reverent is that they revere this thing and don't want other people to mock it.

Do I have that correct?
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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #254 on: April 08, 2017, 10:34:54 PM »
This current discussion is much more valuable than an organically semantic debate about clarity of terminology when speaking with folks generally outside of social justice circles....

 
If you encounter a situation wherein changing the words solves the problem, by all means observe and report how much progress you make by changing the word. I have never encountered this, and maintain my position that the word doesn't matter because the objection is not a result of confusion.

I was talking about a situation wherein discussing the definitions would avoid a problem.

I prefer it to the name-calling silliness going on, but hey, you do you.
Have you encountered such a situation, and made progress by explaining DISCUSSING the words?

Yes, and including this very specific point about this specific definition, which is why I anecdotally feel it worthwhile to discuss here.
Strange women lying in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government.

 

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