Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 90030 times)

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Online The Latinist

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #300 on: April 10, 2017, 11:21:29 AM »
No, we don't.  The world works perfectly fine with moral ambiguity.  Demanding a bright line on one side of which you can remain blameless regardless of circumstances is ridiculous.  It's even more ridiculous to declare, as you have been throughout the thread, that without such a line the entire concept is meaningless.  You have to live in the real world like everyone else, and you have to accept that sometimes what you saw no problems with turns out to offend or harm others.  Be aware, consider your actions and their potential effects, and if you fuck up apologize.  That's the real world.
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Online Harry Black

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #301 on: April 10, 2017, 11:24:53 AM »
I think some people are looking for a "Not touching you, cant get mad" clause.

Online The Latinist

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #302 on: April 10, 2017, 11:26:56 AM »
I think some people are looking for a "Not touching you, cant get mad" clause.

That's exactly what it feels like to me.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #303 on: April 10, 2017, 11:28:08 AM »
I think some people are looking for a "Not touching you, cant get mad" clause.
Right. It's the Ken Ham argument of "If you can't provide every transitional fossil, evolution is fake."
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #304 on: April 10, 2017, 11:34:43 AM »
No, we don't. The world works perfectly fine with moral ambiguity.

Have you even seen the world lately? It's really messed up. That said, once again, I'm not the one promoting the idea of a cultural exchange/appropriation moral binary as a useful dichotomy which ought to be broadly adopted as a guide to human behavior.


« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 11:50:32 AM by D4M10N »

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #305 on: April 10, 2017, 12:28:20 PM »
No, we don't. The world works perfectly fine with moral ambiguity.

Have you even seen the world lately? It's really messed up. That said, once again, I'm not the one promoting the idea of a cultural exchange/appropriation moral binary as a useful dichotomy which ought to be broadly adopted as a guide to human behavior.
Sorry, bud. Moral ambiguity exists. That is the reality. You can demand easy choices all you want but your demands are not going to make those easy choices appear. Also, the world has its issues, some of which may ultimately destroy us (global warming and the threat of nuclear war for two) but all in all, humanity is also at a better place than we've ever been at in terms of longevity, freedom, etc.
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #306 on: April 10, 2017, 12:29:24 PM »
Can we all agree that the exchange/appropriation dichotomy is relatively useless, then?

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Offline Shibboleth

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #307 on: April 10, 2017, 12:56:10 PM »
Unfortunately I think a lot of this falls into trying to define pornography. The lines get blurry pretty quick. Hipsters are a culture of people that get ridiculed on a regular basis and quite often indiscriminately and insensitively. Is it wrong for me to dress up as a hipster for Halloween or if Walmart made beard oils from Iceland with pantone labels?

Personally I don't give a shit for the most part. If you are a sword maker in the US and you want to make Samurai Swords, have at it.
common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Offline random poet

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #308 on: April 10, 2017, 12:57:21 PM »
Can we all agree that the exchange/appropriation dichotomy is relatively useless, then?

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No, I think we have all just agreed to precisely the opposite of that.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #309 on: April 10, 2017, 01:02:33 PM »
Can we all agree that the exchange/appropriation dichotomy is relatively useless, then?

No, I think we have all just agreed to precisely the opposite of that.

Show me how it works then. Of the four numbered examples in the OP, which ones are productive cultural exchange (good) and which are cultural appropriation (bad)?

Offline random poet

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #310 on: April 10, 2017, 01:31:37 PM »
Can we all agree that the exchange/appropriation dichotomy is relatively useless, then?

No, I think we have all just agreed to precisely the opposite of that.

Show me how it works then. Of the four numbered examples in the OP, which ones are productive cultural exchange (good) and which are cultural appropriation (bad)?
Tell you what: In the future, just play it safe and assume that there is no such thing as cultural exchange, and that all cultural appropriation is bad. Problem solved. You'll never have to look like an asshole again.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #311 on: April 10, 2017, 01:36:40 PM »
Evasion noted.

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Online The Latinist

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #312 on: April 10, 2017, 01:36:54 PM »
Can we all agree that the exchange/appropriation dichotomy is relatively useless, then?

You are the only one saying that there's a dichotomy.  Everyone else is saying that there is a continuum and that an act is appropriative in proportion to its harm.  The fact that there is no universally-applicable rule for determining whether a thing is "old" doesn't mean that the concept "old" is meaningless.  Likewise, with appropriation, each act has to be judged in context to weigh its harms and benefits.  There's no shortcut.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #313 on: April 10, 2017, 01:44:57 PM »
Can we all agree that the exchange/appropriation dichotomy is relatively useless, then?

You are the only one saying that there's a dichotomy.

I didn't just make up the idea that cultural exchange is okay whereas cultural appropriation is wrong. Please see upthread.

The existence of cultural exchange does not make appropriation a good thing.
Appropriation is bad by definition (at this point, people are going to have to go google the definition for themselves), but the two things are close.
Its important to stress that cultural exchange is not what is being objected to.



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Online The Latinist

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #314 on: April 10, 2017, 02:01:21 PM »
Can we all agree that the exchange/appropriation dichotomy is relatively useless, then?

You are the only one saying that there's a dichotomy.

I didn't just make up the idea that cultural exchange is okay whereas cultural appropriation is wrong. Please see upthread.

The existence of cultural exchange does not make appropriation a good thing.
Appropriation is bad by definition (at this point, people are going to have to go google the definition for themselves), but the two things are close.
Its important to stress that cultural exchange is not what is being objected to.

But not everything is equally appropriative.  Nobody is saying that every act is either appropriative or not.  We are saying that to the extent that it is harmful, it is appropriative (and vice-versa).
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

 

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