Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 90386 times)

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Offline seamas

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #360 on: April 11, 2017, 12:22:48 PM »
They should make sure to have the hoop earrings in stores where no White or Asian women are allowed to shop.

Keep the men out too. Men should probably be banned from wearing earrings altogether.

Tattoos should only be worn be a select few as well.
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Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #361 on: April 11, 2017, 12:24:35 PM »
it's not really for sheltered privileged people to make decisions about what should and shouldn't be with regard to social issues.

Was that a characterization of me?

Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #362 on: April 11, 2017, 12:25:50 PM »

Tattoos should only be worn be a select few as well.


Only the Maori.  Definitely only the Maori. 

Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #363 on: April 11, 2017, 12:29:39 PM »
The race-based insults and ad hom responses in this thread are truly unnerving, especially since many of the "socially enlightened" are so readily tossing them out.
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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #364 on: April 11, 2017, 12:48:52 PM »
On the plus side, SkeptiQueer and I aren't so far apart on this:

Also, to reiterate, the whole issue was NOT about blaming white girls for wearing hoop earrings, but hey why start listening to women about what the issue is. It's just so much easier to misrepresent the issue and dismiss it instead.


Anyway, about the hoop earrings:

It's important to understand where the complainants are coming from and not dismiss their feelings: assimilating expressions of specific cultural groups into a broader heterogenous culture does rob that originating culture of much of the original expression.

At the same time, cultures can't help but mingle and appropriate from each other, and I see no reason why this particular expression should be reserved for use only by its originators. The complainants are not wrong to feel as they do, but that doesn't mean members of other cultures are wrong for using it, either.

In my opinion, we should listen to and be empathetic toward those that feel disempowered by the assimilation of hoop earrings--but in this case, I don't think there is cause for anybody to be telling anybody to do or not do a thing.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #365 on: April 11, 2017, 12:52:46 PM »
On the plus side, SkeptiQueer and I aren't so far apart on this:

Also, to reiterate, the whole issue was NOT about blaming white girls for wearing hoop earrings, but hey why start listening to women about what the issue is. It's just so much easier to misrepresent the issue and dismiss it instead.


Anyway, about the hoop earrings:

It's important to understand where the complainants are coming from and not dismiss their feelings: assimilating expressions of specific cultural groups into a broader heterogenous culture does rob that originating culture of much of the original expression.

At the same time, cultures can't help but mingle and appropriate from each other, and I see no reason why this particular expression should be reserved for use only by its originators. The complainants are not wrong to feel as they do, but that doesn't mean members of other cultures are wrong for using it, either.

In my opinion, we should listen to and be empathetic toward those that feel disempowered by the assimilation of hoop earrings--but in this case, I don't think there is cause for anybody to be telling anybody to do or not do a thing.

NO ONE IS DEMANDING CULTURAL SEGREGATION IN THIS CASE

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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #366 on: April 11, 2017, 12:56:00 PM »
Nobody said anybody is! (regular-sized type is fine) It's worth specifying, though, because there are other examples of appropriation where I DO think that somebody shouldn't do that thing.

But a forum member posted asking what we each think about it and I posted what I think. It's nice to see that you think pretty much the same thing!  :)
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #367 on: April 11, 2017, 01:06:25 PM »


Nobody said anybody is! (regular-sized type is fine) It's worth specifying, though, because there are other examples of appropriation where I DO think that somebody shouldn't do that thing.

But a forum member posted asking what we each think about it and I posted what I think. It's nice to see that you think pretty much the same thing!  :)

Everyone who is doing the "only X culture can have" is saying that.

You also did when you sai, verbatim, "in this case I don't think there is a cause for anybody to be telling anybody to do or not do a thing."
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #368 on: April 11, 2017, 01:11:58 PM »

Tattoos should only be worn be a select few as well.


Only the Maori.  Definitely only the Maori.
White girls should take off those earrings and apologize.

[Picture of Anita Sarkeesian wearing hoop earrings]

Just terrible.

They should make sure to have the hoop earrings in stores where no White or Asian women are allowed to shop.

Keep the men out too. Men should probably be banned from wearing earrings altogether.

Tattoos should only be worn be a select few as well.

What do people think about the recent incident at Pitzer College in which female students of color said that white women should not wear hoop earrings because it is cultural appropriation?

My opinion is that this request was absurd.  Especially since hoop earrings originated in Ancient Greece. 

Article here:  http://claremontindependent.com/pitzer-college-ra-white-people-cant-wear-hoop-earrings/


Nobody said anybody is! (regular-sized type is fine) It's worth specifying, though, because there are other examples of appropriation where I DO think that somebody shouldn't do that thing.

But a forum member posted asking what we each think about it and I posted what I think. It's nice to see that you think pretty much the same thing!  :)

ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE OTHERS.
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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #369 on: April 11, 2017, 01:14:46 PM »


Nobody said anybody is! (regular-sized type is fine) It's worth specifying, though, because there are other examples of appropriation where I DO think that somebody shouldn't do that thing.

But a forum member posted asking what we each think about it and I posted what I think. It's nice to see that you think pretty much the same thing!  :)

Everyone who is doing the "only X culture can have" is saying that.

You also did when you sai, verbatim, "in this case I don't think there is a cause for anybody to be telling anybody to do or not do a thing."

Yes--I don't think there is cause for anybody to tell anybody to tell anybody not to wear hoop earrings. Do you agree? Disagree?
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Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #370 on: April 11, 2017, 01:19:59 PM »


Nobody said anybody is! (regular-sized type is fine) It's worth specifying, though, because there are other examples of appropriation where I DO think that somebody shouldn't do that thing.

But a forum member posted asking what we each think about it and I posted what I think. It's nice to see that you think pretty much the same thing!  :)

Everyone who is doing the "only X culture can have" is saying that.

You also did when you sai, verbatim, "in this case I don't think there is a cause for anybody to be telling anybody to do or not do a thing."

Yes--I don't think there is cause for anybody to tell anybody to tell anybody not to wear hoop earrings. Do you agree? Disagree?
Maybe you should go back and read the original post that was made about hoop earrings and decide if *you* agree or disagree with the statements made there instead... that way we aren't moving goalposts around.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #371 on: April 11, 2017, 01:33:18 PM »


NO ONE IS DEMANDING CULTURAL SEGREGATION IN THIS CASE

Really? No one?

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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #372 on: April 11, 2017, 01:37:31 PM »


NO ONE IS DEMANDING CULTURAL SEGREGATION IN THIS CASE

Really? No one?

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From the article, because apparently you can google a picture but clicking a link to try to understand the art is just too much work:

Quote
When one white student expressed confusion about the message, Alegria Martinez (PZ ’18) – a Pitzer College Resident Assistant (RA) and active member of the “Latinx Student Union” – responded in an email thread sent to the entire student body: “[T]he art was created by myself and a few other WOC [women of color] after being tired and annoyed with the reoccuring [sic] theme of white women appropriating styles … that belong to the black and brown folks who created the culture. The culture actually comes from a historical background of oppression and exclusion. The black and brown bodies who typically wear hooped earrings, (and other accessories like winged eyeliner, gold name plate necklaces, etc) are typically viewed as ghetto, and are not taken seriously by others in their daily lives. Because of this, I see our winged eyeliner, lined lips, and big hoop earrings serving as symbols [and] as an everyday act of resistance, especially here at the Claremont Colleges. Meanwhile we wonder, why should white girls be able to take part in this culture (wearing hoop earrings just being one case of it) and be seen as cute/aesthetic/ethnic. White people have actually exploited the culture and made it into fashion.”

Jacquelyn Aguilera (PZ ’19), another student claiming credit for the spray-painted message, responded to the school-wide email thread, “If you didn’t create the culture as a coping mechanism for marginalization, take off those hoops, if your feminism isn’t intersectional take off those hoops, if you try to wear mi cultura when the creators can no longer afford it, take off those hoops, if you are incapable of using a search engine and expect other people to educate you, take off those hoops, if you can’t pronounce my name or spell it … take off those hoops / I use “those” instead of “your” because hoops were never “yours” to begin with.” Aguilera attached an image of herself and the others who spray-painted the wall exposing their own hoop earrings.

Question, when a socialist says something like "eat the rich" do you think they're literally advocating for cannibalism? Or are you going to explain to all of us why the people who created that art are wrong about what it means?
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #373 on: April 11, 2017, 01:42:49 PM »
"Eat the rich" basically begs for a non-literal reading, unless you've no taboo against cannibalism. Terrible analogy, that one.

And surely you cannot expect that the set of people who saw the signage is coextensive with those who bothered to read the email thread. Right?

As to the email itself, it is hard to imagine that many people in college today can be credited with creating this particular artifact of human culture, or even popularizing it in a given subculture.

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« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 01:52:02 PM by D4M10N »

Offline random poet

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #374 on: April 11, 2017, 01:48:07 PM »
I was about to craft a response entitled, "Five Reasons Why You Should Never Cite Everydayfeminism."  But I gave up.

In all serious, we will just have to agree to disagree.  Bigoted behavior is bad.  Telling a woman of color that she cannot wear hoop earrings to work based on bigoted reasons is bad.  (Presumably there are legitimate reasons, such as safety reasons.)   White women wearing hoop earrings is not bad.  But I don't expect you to agree.  And that's fine.  With social issues, there is room for reasonable people to disagree.
That is not what is going on here. We are definitely not agreeing to disagree. You are wrong, and people are trying to explain why, and you are choosing to ignore that. Then you are doubling down on your priviledged position and "explaining" things to others while being even more wrong about it. It's almost a caricature. I would laugh if it weren't so frustrating to watch.
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