Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 90027 times)

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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #375 on: April 11, 2017, 01:51:01 PM »
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Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #376 on: April 11, 2017, 01:56:39 PM »


NO ONE IS DEMANDING CULTURAL SEGREGATION IN THIS CASE

Really? No one?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

From the article, because apparently you can google a picture but clicking a link to try to understand the art is just too much work:

Quote
When one white student expressed confusion about the message, Alegria Martinez (PZ ’18) – a Pitzer College Resident Assistant (RA) and active member of the “Latinx Student Union” – responded in an email thread sent to the entire student body: “[T]he art was created by myself and a few other WOC [women of color] after being tired and annoyed with the reoccuring [sic] theme of white women appropriating styles … that belong to the black and brown folks who created the culture. The culture actually comes from a historical background of oppression and exclusion. The black and brown bodies who typically wear hooped earrings, (and other accessories like winged eyeliner, gold name plate necklaces, etc) are typically viewed as ghetto, and are not taken seriously by others in their daily lives. Because of this, I see our winged eyeliner, lined lips, and big hoop earrings serving as symbols [and] as an everyday act of resistance, especially here at the Claremont Colleges. Meanwhile we wonder, why should white girls be able to take part in this culture (wearing hoop earrings just being one case of it) and be seen as cute/aesthetic/ethnic. White people have actually exploited the culture and made it into fashion.”

Jacquelyn Aguilera (PZ ’19), another student claiming credit for the spray-painted message, responded to the school-wide email thread, “If you didn’t create the culture as a coping mechanism for marginalization, take off those hoops, if your feminism isn’t intersectional take off those hoops, if you try to wear mi cultura when the creators can no longer afford it, take off those hoops, if you are incapable of using a search engine and expect other people to educate you, take off those hoops, if you can’t pronounce my name or spell it … take off those hoops / I use “those” instead of “your” because hoops were never “yours” to begin with.” Aguilera attached an image of herself and the others who spray-painted the wall exposing their own hoop earrings.

Question, when a socialist says something like "eat the rich" do you think they're literally advocating for cannibalism? Or are you going to explain to all of us why the people who created that art are wrong about what it means?
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #377 on: April 11, 2017, 01:57:01 PM »
"Eat the rich" basically begs for a non-literal reading, unless you've no taboo against cannibalism. Terrible analogy, that one.

No it's a perfect analogy. Reactionaries on the right have tried to paint similar sloganeering as calls for violent revolution before.

And surely you cannot expect that the set of people who saw the signage is coextensive with those who bothered to read the email thread. Right?

I don't have to. That's not the way art works. I also don't expect people who hear "eat the rich" to have read contemporary socialist literature. Art is supposed to provoke a response and HOLY FUCKING DICK would you look at that, the response it provoked got the group's message out well beyond the reach of their campus. Holy shit it's amazing how that worked isn't it?

As to the email itself, it is hard to imagine that many people in college today can be credited with creating this particular artifact of human culture, or even popularizing it in a given subculture.

That's not what was claimed in the email at all. You realize everyone else can read those words too and, if they're functional English speakers, can come to the conclusion that the thing you just claimed was said is not, right? Seriously, how stupid do you think everyone else is?
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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #378 on: April 11, 2017, 02:00:36 PM »


NO ONE IS DEMANDING CULTURAL SEGREGATION IN THIS CASE

Really? No one?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

From the article, because apparently you can google a picture but clicking a link to try to understand the art is just too much work:

Quote
When one white student expressed confusion about the message, Alegria Martinez (PZ ’18) – a Pitzer College Resident Assistant (RA) and active member of the “Latinx Student Union” – responded in an email thread sent to the entire student body: “[T]he art was created by myself and a few other WOC [women of color] after being tired and annoyed with the reoccuring [sic] theme of white women appropriating styles … that belong to the black and brown folks who created the culture. The culture actually comes from a historical background of oppression and exclusion. The black and brown bodies who typically wear hooped earrings, (and other accessories like winged eyeliner, gold name plate necklaces, etc) are typically viewed as ghetto, and are not taken seriously by others in their daily lives. Because of this, I see our winged eyeliner, lined lips, and big hoop earrings serving as symbols [and] as an everyday act of resistance, especially here at the Claremont Colleges. Meanwhile we wonder, why should white girls be able to take part in this culture (wearing hoop earrings just being one case of it) and be seen as cute/aesthetic/ethnic. White people have actually exploited the culture and made it into fashion.”

Jacquelyn Aguilera (PZ ’19), another student claiming credit for the spray-painted message, responded to the school-wide email thread, “If you didn’t create the culture as a coping mechanism for marginalization, take off those hoops, if your feminism isn’t intersectional take off those hoops, if you try to wear mi cultura when the creators can no longer afford it, take off those hoops, if you are incapable of using a search engine and expect other people to educate you, take off those hoops, if you can’t pronounce my name or spell it … take off those hoops / I use “those” instead of “your” because hoops were never “yours” to begin with.” Aguilera attached an image of herself and the others who spray-painted the wall exposing their own hoop earrings.

Question, when a socialist says something like "eat the rich" do you think they're literally advocating for cannibalism? Or are you going to explain to all of us why the people who created that art are wrong about what it means?

I saw nothing metaphorical, figurative, or tongue in cheek in that explanation. She very clearly feels that white girls should not wear hoops. She also seems to genuinely believe that her own culture invented them in some meaningful sense of the term as an expression of their marginalization.

People in lower social classes are usually late to fashion trends. As a result, there is overlap between ghetto/trailerpark fashion and what is regarded as "tacky" by the mainstream. Many of these "tacky" things, including the hoops, where once quite fashionable before falling out of favor, and will inevitably cycle back into popularity, given the time.

The problem is that entire ethnic communities are being forced into lower social classes. That's the problem. The fact that fashion cycles through those different classes at different rates is not the problem. The fact that hoops are making their millionth comeback is not the problem.

Quote
Or are you going to explain to all of us why the people who created that art are wrong about what it means?

It's not that they are wrong about "what their art means". For one thing, they seem to totally support the interpretation that white girls shouldn't wear hoops.

It's that, like L. Ron Hubbard and Ayn Rand before them, their art is, itself, wrong. It has an incorrect message.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 02:05:51 PM by Redamare »
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #379 on: April 11, 2017, 02:03:14 PM »


NO ONE IS DEMANDING CULTURAL SEGREGATION IN THIS CASE

Really? No one?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

From the article, because apparently you can google a picture but clicking a link to try to understand the art is just too much work:

Quote
When one white student expressed confusion about the message, Alegria Martinez (PZ ’18) – a Pitzer College Resident Assistant (RA) and active member of the “Latinx Student Union” – responded in an email thread sent to the entire student body: “[T]he art was created by myself and a few other WOC [women of color] after being tired and annoyed with the reoccuring [sic] theme of white women appropriating styles … that belong to the black and brown folks who created the culture. The culture actually comes from a historical background of oppression and exclusion. The black and brown bodies who typically wear hooped earrings, (and other accessories like winged eyeliner, gold name plate necklaces, etc) are typically viewed as ghetto, and are not taken seriously by others in their daily lives. Because of this, I see our winged eyeliner, lined lips, and big hoop earrings serving as symbols [and] as an everyday act of resistance, especially here at the Claremont Colleges. Meanwhile we wonder, why should white girls be able to take part in this culture (wearing hoop earrings just being one case of it) and be seen as cute/aesthetic/ethnic. White people have actually exploited the culture and made it into fashion.”

Jacquelyn Aguilera (PZ ’19), another student claiming credit for the spray-painted message, responded to the school-wide email thread, “If you didn’t create the culture as a coping mechanism for marginalization, take off those hoops, if your feminism isn’t intersectional take off those hoops, if you try to wear mi cultura when the creators can no longer afford it, take off those hoops, if you are incapable of using a search engine and expect other people to educate you, take off those hoops, if you can’t pronounce my name or spell it … take off those hoops / I use “those” instead of “your” because hoops were never “yours” to begin with.” Aguilera attached an image of herself and the others who spray-painted the wall exposing their own hoop earrings.

Question, when a socialist says something like "eat the rich" do you think they're literally advocating for cannibalism? Or are you going to explain to all of us why the people who created that art are wrong about what it means?

I saw nothing metaphorical, figurative, or tongue in cheek in that explanation. She very clearly feels that white girls should not wear hoops. She also seems to genuinely believe that her own culture invented them in some meaningful sense of the term as an expression of their marginalization.

People in lower social classes are usually late to fashion trends. As a result, there is overlap between ghetto/trailerpark fashion and what is regarded as "tacky" by the mainstream. Many of these "tacky" things, including the hoops, where once quite fashionable before falling out of favor, and will inevitably cycle back into popularity, given the time.

The problem is that entire ethnic communities are being forced into lower social classes. That's the problem. The fact that fashion cycles through those different classes at different rates is not the problem. The fact that hoops are making their millionth comeback is not the problem.
So the series of if-then statements calling for women in the privileged majority to be more aware of the issues of appropriating elements of culture from the lower classes just blew right by you?

There's not one problem. We are not limited to one social issue. There are a bunch of issues that intersect, and trying to abstract them away from their context is like trying to talk about global warming without talking about how it will harm life on earth.
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Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #380 on: April 11, 2017, 02:05:24 PM »



NO ONE IS DEMANDING CULTURAL SEGREGATION IN THIS CASE


The student said this:
Quote
Meanwhile we wonder, why should white girls be able to take part in this culture (wearing hoop earrings just being one case of it).
 

She did more than just "wonder" when she painted that message.  And no, it is a message first and foremost.  Categorizing it as a work of art is a stretch, especially in light of the fact that the persons who wrote the message haven't categorized it in that manner.  The article uses the term, "spray-painted message" which went unchallenged.

Finally, the patronizing tone you have adopted is unbecoming of this forum.  If you can't refrain from that tone, it's best to not comment at all.

Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #381 on: April 11, 2017, 02:08:50 PM »
So the series of if-then statements calling for women in the privileged majority to be more aware of the issues of appropriating elements of culture from the lower classes just blew right by you?


You are completely mischaracterizing her statement and ignoring that the statement was given as context only after the message was spray painted on the wall.  You need to do that to cling to your contention.  I'll stick to the facts, thank you.

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #382 on: April 11, 2017, 02:12:12 PM »
Really? Because it's my experience that fashion is weird. The further you get away from big cities the more outdated the fashion becomes in general, and I guess there's a stigma associated with rural people and poverty, and then I guess on top of that some poor people, particularly older folks, will wear older fashion because those are literally the clothes that they actually own, but we have a long, long history of poor people fashion getting co-opted by the middle class in some way, shape, or form, whether it's because middle class kids are mimicking the clothing and hairstyles of their favorite bands (who often come from poor backgrounds) (a great example of this being early heavy metal and punk rock... hip hop too, for that matter) or else subcultures that happen to be poor produce something cool that everyone else wants to mimic. The cultural *exchange* of fashion doesn't *only* occur between lower and middle class but it's very, very common to see.

Also, I think we need to examine our uses of "trailer park tacky" and the like. Just because the people in your head are white does not mean that it's okay to be derisive of them and their culture. An *awful* lot of that "lolol look at these dumb people in Wal-Mart" garbage you see on Tumblr and Reddit is just coded classism, nothing more.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #383 on: April 11, 2017, 02:13:10 PM »
There's not one problem. We are not limited to one social issue. There are a bunch of issues that intersect, and trying to abstract them away from their context is like trying to talk about global warming without talking about how it will harm life on earth.

I'm not sure I agree with that. In fact, I think the argument can be made that this is a way for the powerful to distract us from the economic exploitation that is a part of everyday life for most Americans.

There is merit in some of these ideas, as I said earlier, but on balance I think they burn up energy better spent fighting for all working people. If you don't think economics have anything to do with this hoop earring issue, I can only conclude that you haven't been paying attention.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #384 on: April 11, 2017, 02:47:08 PM »
So the series of if-then statements calling for women in the privileged majority to be more aware of the issues of appropriating elements of culture from the lower classes just blew right by you?


You are completely mischaracterizing her statement and ignoring that the statement was given as context only after the message was spray painted on the wall.  You need to do that to cling to your contention.  I'll stick to the facts, thank you.


I'm not seeing a lot of daylight in those if-then statements anyhow. Maybe Gwen Stefani gets a pass (maybe not!) but certainly not Dolly Parton.





Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #385 on: April 11, 2017, 02:54:05 PM »
And don't even get me started on hula figurines in Lyft vehicles.




Offline nameofthewave

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #386 on: April 11, 2017, 03:13:41 PM »
I was about to craft a response entitled, "Five Reasons Why You Should Never Cite Everydayfeminism."  But I gave up.

In all serious, we will just have to agree to disagree.  Bigoted behavior is bad.  Telling a woman of color that she cannot wear hoop earrings to work based on bigoted reasons is bad.  (Presumably there are legitimate reasons, such as safety reasons.)   White women wearing hoop earrings is not bad.  But I don't expect you to agree.  And that's fine.  With social issues, there is room for reasonable people to disagree.
That is not what is going on here. We are definitely not agreeing to disagree. You are wrong, and people are trying to explain why, and you are choosing to ignore that. Then you are doubling down on your priviledged position and "explaining" things to others while being even more wrong about it. It's almost a caricature. I would laugh if it weren't so frustrating to watch.

So if a member of a minority group was to have the opinion that others were overreacting to cultural appropriation, or were to say "it doesn't bother me at all", is their opinion valid? Or would they also need to be educated?

Online The Latinist

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #387 on: April 11, 2017, 03:16:17 PM »
Ah, that old canard."My black friend said I could use the N word, so checkmate libs!"
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #388 on: April 11, 2017, 03:20:01 PM »


There's not one problem. We are not limited to one social issue. There are a bunch of issues that intersect, and trying to abstract them away from their context is like trying to talk about global warming without talking about how it will harm life on earth.

I'm not sure I agree with that. In fact, I think the argument can be made that this is a way for the powerful to distract us from the economic exploitation that is a part of everyday life for most Americans.

There is merit in some of these ideas, as I said earlier, but on balance I think they burn up energy better spent fighting for all working people. If you don't think economics have anything to do with this hoop earring issue, I can only conclude that you haven't been paying attention.

The powerful are the ones who keep telling us that misogyny and transphobia and racism are all made up to keep us distracted. If you want to demonstrate that all these issues go away if we "fight for working people" then by all means, but until then it sounds an awful lot like you're telling everyone else to bench their problems because they don't matter as much.



So the series of if-then statements calling for women in the privileged majority to be more aware of the issues of appropriating elements of culture from the lower classes just blew right by you?


You are completely mischaracterizing her statement and ignoring that the statement was given as context only after the message was spray painted on the wall.  You need to do that to cling to your contention.  I'll stick to the facts, thank you.

To recap: things the artist said about her work=not facts.
Things men who've never met the artist say about her work=facts.

Yep, this is all just because we don't fight for the working class. Damn us essjaydubyahs for always getting sidetracked by women's issues. If only we would reempower the unions we could go back to the days when women and minorities weren't oppressed by the oppressed working class.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #389 on: April 11, 2017, 03:21:59 PM »
Ah, that old canard."My black friend said I could use the N word, so checkmate libs!"
Sily lib, minorities who agree with me are the only ones who matter, the rest are shills for Big Karma!
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