Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 93486 times)

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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #405 on: April 11, 2017, 06:50:39 PM »
Im not wanting to be an asshole, but I just don't think MTV's Decoded is a reliable or intellectually rigorous resource. In all seriousness, I never recommend it to others.
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #406 on: April 11, 2017, 07:46:01 PM »
All right, dudebros, have fun with your right-wing circle-jerk, this thread is dead.

Dudes, we like totally won.  Let's go celebrate at a Hawaiian luau and drink some sake!
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #407 on: April 11, 2017, 08:12:01 PM »
Im not wanting to be an asshole, but I just don't think MTV's Decoded is a reliable or intellectually rigorous resource. In all seriousness, I never recommend it to others.

That's a fantastic excuse for not watching it. Well done.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #408 on: April 11, 2017, 08:15:33 PM »
He isn't missing much. The video at no point describes any actual harms caused by the actions which they hope to eliminate.

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #409 on: April 11, 2017, 08:41:33 PM »
He isn't missing much. The video at no point describes any actual harms caused by the actions which they hope to eliminate.
Do you really want a detailed, enumerated list of the precise and exact "harms" that appropriation causes? With, perhaps, a scaled ranking of how harmful the harms are?

Get over it. No-one has that. For anything. Your demand is completely unreasonable.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #410 on: April 11, 2017, 08:46:42 PM »
Im not wanting to be an asshole, but I just don't think MTV's Decoded is a reliable or intellectually rigorous resource. In all seriousness, I never recommend it to others.

That's a fantastic excuse for not watching it. Well done.

I did watch it, and as usual they take it for granted that you agree with their representation of the facts. This frees them to define anyone who disagrees as a willful bigot, and also frees them of any obligation to actually support those facts.

On a more personal note, Arth, I can't tell you how many times people on the "more lefty" side from me in a debate on these forums have refused to entertain any videos from my side. I can't recollect well enough to say whether you ever did so, but I don't accept that you could possibly be unaware of this history.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #411 on: April 11, 2017, 08:55:20 PM »
Im not wanting to be an asshole, but I just don't think MTV's Decoded is a reliable or intellectually rigorous resource. In all seriousness, I never recommend it to others.

That's a fantastic excuse for not watching it. Well done.

I did watch it, and as usual they take it for granted that you agree with their representation of the facts. This frees them to define anyone who disagrees as a willful bigot, and also frees them of any obligation to actually support those facts.
What you said before is a fantastic excuse for not watching it. What you just said is a fantastic excuse for dismissing its content without serious consideration.

You're winning! Yay!
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #412 on: April 11, 2017, 09:23:41 PM »
Do you really want a detailed, enumerated list of the precise and exact "harms" that appropriation causes? With, perhaps, a scaled ranking of how harmful the harms are?

Get over it. No-one has that. For anything. Your demand is completely unreasonable.

Come now, it is not even all that hard. Somewhere upthread, someone told a compelling story about how a friend was harmed by a lack of Asian leading men in whitewashed kung-fu movies.

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Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #413 on: April 11, 2017, 09:39:35 PM »
Im not wanting to be an asshole, but I just don't think MTV's Decoded is a reliable or intellectually rigorous resource. In all seriousness, I never recommend it to others.

That's a fantastic excuse for not watching it. Well done.
I did watch it, and as usual they take it for granted that you agree with their representation of the facts. This frees them to define anyone who disagrees as a willful bigot, and also frees them of any obligation to actually support those facts.
What you said before is a fantastic excuse for not watching it. What you just said is a fantastic excuse for dismissing its content without serious consideration.

You're winning! Yay!


Dude, it's freaking MTV.  Lighten up and stop acting like he's being dismissive of a scholarly journal. 

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #414 on: April 11, 2017, 09:44:46 PM »
It's Redamare.  I don't think we should just dismiss him on tribal lines.  If anything he represents "one of our own" who disagrees with us on this issue.  That's probably the best scenario one can hope for to try and understand the issue honestly.
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Offline Caffiene

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #415 on: April 11, 2017, 11:20:26 PM »
Like most social issues, abstracting them from societal power dynamics makes them mostly moot, like trying to explain a chemical reaction without discussing what the chemicals involved are or how they interact chemically.

Sure. But first you have to have analysed the reaction to a sufficient level of understanding to show that the chemical is involved in the reaction, and that it makes a recognisable difference from a reaction where the chemical isnt present.

There are social issues where the issue is a complication resulting from power dynamics. That doesnt mean every concept associated with a power dynamic is inherently an issue in and of itself beyond the issue of the power dynamic. Thats the question Im asking - Is it an issue that has consequences not explained purely by explaining the power dynamic itself?

If its a social issue where the problem is entirely represented by the power dynamic then it seems to me to be much more productive to directly address the power dynamic. Attempting to address the issue in a way that isnt directed at the power dynamic seems like it would inherently be less effective, if the power dynamic is fully responsible for the issue.

If its an issue that isnt entirely represented by the power dynamic, then there are efficient measures which can be taken to address the issue beyond addressing the power dynamic itself. In which case it is important to identify those parts of the issue which are unique and separate from the power dynamic in order to address them.
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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #416 on: April 11, 2017, 11:36:32 PM »
PLEASE WATCH THAT VIDEO.

Thanks for posting that! I think it's an excellent primer for those unfamiliar with the issue, and contains some nice reminders for those that are in the know.
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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #417 on: April 11, 2017, 11:39:31 PM »
Can anybody think of any examples of cultural appropriation in which you feel members of not-that-culture shouldn't participate?

NWA cover bands.

Well I can't argue with this one.  :laugh:
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #418 on: April 11, 2017, 11:42:03 PM »


Like most social issues, abstracting them from societal power dynamics makes them mostly moot, like trying to explain a chemical reaction without discussing what the chemicals involved are or how they interact chemically.

Sure. But first you have to have analysed the reaction to a sufficient level of understanding to show that the chemical is involved in the reaction, and that it makes a recognisable difference from a reaction where the chemical isnt present.

There are social issues where the issue is a complication resulting from power dynamics. That doesnt mean every concept associated with a power dynamic is inherently an issue in and of itself beyond the issue of the power dynamic. Thats the question Im asking - Is it an issue that has consequences not explained purely by explaining the power dynamic itself?

If its a social issue where the problem is entirely represented by the power dynamic then it seems to me to be much more productive to directly address the power dynamic. Attempting to address the issue in a way that isnt directed at the power dynamic seems like it would inherently be less effective, if the power dynamic is fully responsible for the issue.

If its an issue that isnt entirely represented by the power dynamic, then there are efficient measures which can be taken to address the issue beyond addressing the power dynamic itself. In which case it is important to identify those parts of the issue which are unique and separate from the power dynamic in order to address them.

Beyond the power dynamic there will always be individual action. One person misgendering people doesn't cause the entirety of transphobia and the hot mess that is gender relations in this country, but they can certain add to it. The specific action taken is to stop misgendering people. When people go a step beyond and do it anyway, they take a step further towards active harm.

Does that make sense as a proof of concept?
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Offline Caffiene

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #419 on: April 12, 2017, 12:17:08 AM »
Beyond the power dynamic there will always be individual action. One person misgendering people doesn't cause the entirety of transphobia and the hot mess that is gender relations in this country, but they can certain add to it. The specific action taken is to stop misgendering people. When people go a step beyond and do it anyway, they take a step further towards active harm.

Does that make sense as a proof of concept?

So the idea is that cultural appropriation is a step further towards active harm based on power dynamic? That it... what? Lends the power dynamic more immediacy and direct relevance that causes a more specific distress in the individuals affected? I can sort of see that as being persuasive reasoning, but Im having trouble putting into words to have a concrete idea of what Im being persuaded of.
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