Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 90253 times)

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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #450 on: April 12, 2017, 04:20:46 PM »



Presented by the people who aren't madly scrambling to dismiss the concepts of social justice.
Can you not comprehend that your concept of social justice may not be the only acceptable concept?

So not rational, logically consistent, just, compassionate, ethical, moral, but what's important is that they be acceptable.

"Acceptable" implied those things, silly person.

No it didn't. You're just saying that after the fact. Remember, explanations given after the fact don't count:
http://sguforums.com/index.php?action=post;quote=9490933;topic=48481.375;last_msg=9491254


The important thing is that you're having so much fun reducing the people you haven't persuaded into gibbering drooling stereotypes.

I don't have to reduce anyone to anything. The argument against has been nothing but strawman, denial, strawman, "NO U" and on and on. We can't go a single page without someone drooling out the most hackneyed "CHECKMATE FEMINISM!" bullshit. You did about the best so far, but completely dismissed intersectionalism and didn't make any attempt to defend your claim that fighting for the working class would alleviate all these social ills despite that not being the case anywhere in the world.

Hey, now someone has actually typed the words "thought police." Are you sure it's me reducing people to stereotypes? Are you sure?
HIISSSSSSSS

Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #451 on: April 12, 2017, 04:39:36 PM »



"Acceptable" implied those things, silly person.

No it didn't. You're just saying that after the fact.

So you know better what I was thinking than I do?  That seems just a teensy bit absurd.   

Offline random poet

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #452 on: April 12, 2017, 04:59:38 PM »
I think it is a fairly salient question whether white feminists (especially highly visible activists) who wear hoop earrings need to take them off, for the sake of publicly upholding the values espoused by those concerned with intersectionality. If the Latinx Student Union cannot persuade an outspoken and dedicated feminist to take off her hoops, they shouldn't expect to persuade many others.

One might even say it is a good test case to suss out what the competing values are here. What is the upside of confining white folks to the use of "white culture" assuming that is really a thing? Is there a downside, perhaps reinforcing the idea (popular among the alt-right) that whiteness should be set apart from any other cultural milieu?

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You know what, you're right. Having that one prominent womanist who refused to retroactively take off her hoop earings means that cultural appropriation doesn't exist, and also feminism is bad, or something.
Aujourd'hui j'ai vu un facteur joyeux.

Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #453 on: April 12, 2017, 05:03:18 PM »
Is that what I said, poet?

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Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #454 on: April 12, 2017, 05:03:51 PM »
I think it is a fairly salient question whether white feminists (especially highly visible activists) who wear hoop earrings need to take them off, for the sake of publicly upholding the values espoused by those concerned with intersectionality. If the Latinx Student Union cannot persuade an outspoken and dedicated feminist to take off her hoops, they shouldn't expect to persuade many others.

One might even say it is a good test case to suss out what the competing values are here. What is the upside of confining white folks to the use of "white culture" assuming that is really a thing? Is there a downside, perhaps reinforcing the idea (popular among the alt-right) that whiteness should be set apart from any other cultural milieu?

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You know what, you're right. Having that one prominent womanist who refused to retroactively take off her hoop earings means that cultural appropriation doesn't exist, and also feminism is bad, or something.
That wasn't the point of the image.  The issue is whether or not the image was relevant to just some degree.  It most certainly was. 

Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #455 on: April 12, 2017, 05:05:50 PM »
Is that what I said, poet?

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Not even close. 

Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #456 on: April 12, 2017, 05:16:25 PM »
I thought you took your ball and went home random poet.  Come, enjoy this lovely kugel.  It's thick enough to eat with chopsticks!
I'm just the victim of my cognitive privilege

Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #457 on: April 13, 2017, 01:32:24 AM »
Seriously, explain intersectionality to me.

I mean, I get the notion that a person can be marginalized in more than one way. I am an Atheist, physically disabled, and suffer from mental illness. And yeah, those things effect each other sometimes. But there's so much more going on in an individual than can be put into some sort of didactic venn diagram of oppression.

Also, it seems to encourage tribalism. If you are a member of a group, it is presumed that this membership is passionately important to your identity, or at least that it is a fine and good thing for it to be, if it is. But see, I don't actually think that's a good thing. I don't think group membership outside of things that actually benefit and appeal to you should be that central to anyone's identity. If you identify as something, beyond your family, nation of which you are either/both a citizen or resident, job you actually do, sports team you actually play on, etc., that's fine but it shouldn't be central to your overall personal identity.

Now, I am NOT saying, for example "Stop being so Ethnic/Gay/Trans/Atheist/Disabled and we'll treat you better!" It's just that other people are saying "Be as Ethnic/Gay/Trans/etc. as you can be and go to meetings about how (Whatever) you are and describe your life in explicit terms of your (Whatever) context until they treat you better!" and I'm all like "Gee, I don't know, that doesn't really sound like it will make you a happy person, or the sort of person likely to be allowed in the room when a landmark decision is made to end an injustice. Maybe just be as much of the things that you are as you want to be, and be secure enough in it that the people around you aren't having to constantly validate your identity for you with special terminology, pronouns, etc."
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Offline wastrel

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #458 on: April 13, 2017, 01:46:55 AM »
I am pretty sure I know the answer when it comes to Redamare and Andrew Clunn, but I am curious.  NEKSkeptic, D4M10N, jt512; are you a member of any of the groups that might be considered a minority population, or a population without dominant power, in your culture?

The answer to this in no way invalidates your opinions on any matter, I am just curious if the opposition to cultural appropriation as a concept may correlate in some way to one's relative position in the dominant culture. I posit that one who is within a class/culture that holds a dominant position over others is more likely to perceive cultural appropriation as a non-issue.

Offline Johnny Slick

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #459 on: April 13, 2017, 02:45:08 AM »
Seriously, explain intersectionality to me.

I mean, I get the notion that a person can be marginalized in more than one way. I am an Atheist, physically disabled, and suffer from mental illness. And yeah, those things effect each other sometimes. But there's so much more going on in an individual than can be put into some sort of didactic venn diagram of oppression.

Also, it seems to encourage tribalism. If you are a member of a group, it is presumed that this membership is passionately important to your identity, or at least that it is a fine and good thing for it to be, if it is. But see, I don't actually think that's a good thing. I don't think group membership outside of things that actually benefit and appeal to you should be that central to anyone's identity. If you identify as something, beyond your family, nation of which you are either/both a citizen or resident, job you actually do, sports team you actually play on, etc., that's fine but it shouldn't be central to your overall personal identity.

Now, I am NOT saying, for example "Stop being so Ethnic/Gay/Trans/Atheist/Disabled and we'll treat you better!" It's just that other people are saying "Be as Ethnic/Gay/Trans/etc. as you can be and go to meetings about how (Whatever) you are and describe your life in explicit terms of your (Whatever) context until they treat you better!" and I'm all like "Gee, I don't know, that doesn't really sound like it will make you a happy person, or the sort of person likely to be allowed in the room when a landmark decision is made to end an injustice. Maybe just be as much of the things that you are as you want to be, and be secure enough in it that the people around you aren't having to constantly validate your identity for you with special terminology, pronouns, etc."
Not to be the thread police here but this has nothing to do with the conversation that's going on. I'm open to talking about that but not here.
Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day.

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Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #460 on: April 13, 2017, 05:37:48 AM »
I am pretty sure I know the answer when it comes to Redamare and Andrew Clunn, but I am curious.  NEKSkeptic, D4M10N, jt512; are you a member of any of the groups that might be considered a minority population, or a population without dominant power, in your culture?
Yes, I am.   Are you?

The idea that someone's opinion could be given less weight because of the pigment of their skin or their genitalia is abhorrent to me.  I find that question to be insulting, frankly. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 05:41:03 AM by NEKSkeptic »

Offline D4M10N

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some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #461 on: April 13, 2017, 08:59:33 AM »
I am pretty sure I know the answer when it comes to Redamare and Andrew Clunn, but I am curious.  NEKSkeptic, D4M10N, jt512; are you a member of any of the groups that might be considered a minority population, or a population without dominant power, in your culture?

Sort of gave it away in post #432 upthread, but yeah. I'm the first in my patrilineal line born in the States, and the first born in an English speaking household. Not that I've ever felt oppressed, really. Class buffers much.


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« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 09:05:14 AM by D4M10N »

Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #462 on: April 13, 2017, 09:43:39 AM »
Nearly all of us are Atheists.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #463 on: April 13, 2017, 10:05:53 AM »
Nearly all of us are Atheists.

Religious folks are quite welcome and heartily encouraged to appropriate the culture of secularism, though. Secularize away, I say! Roll back the blue laws. Stop giving special privileges to all religions, including Secular Humanism. Relocate religious monuments to private land, deed them over to private parties.

Maybe keep Xmas as a federal holiday, though. We secular folk have appropriated so much of it.



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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #464 on: April 13, 2017, 10:28:11 AM »
Maybe keep Xmas as a federal holiday, though. We secular folk have appropriated so much of it.

See atheists who appropriate Christmas are wrong for stealing Christian culture.  Of course the Christians are wrong for stealing pagan culture.  Oh man... it's almost like culture is this nebulous thing that isn't specifically tied to one's lineage because it can be transferred laterally.  That'd be really inconvenient for anyone trying to argue that they own an idea because they share a skin tone with its inventor though.  I mean besides the whole IP restriction on steroids, tribal divisiveness, and hypocrisy issues.
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