some thoughts on cultural appropriation

[Redamare]

Sticking with the hoop earring: I dispute that they EVER belonged to Latina Culture in any meaningful way. The fashion is many times older than Spanish Colonialism.

Furthermore, I meet the notion that Hoop earrings were in any way chosen as some kind of deliberate response to or expression of marginalization with skepticism. What's the connection there?

Lastly, all of the relevant connotations of hoop earrings are highly temporary! It only makes sense because they are unfashionable AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT. Upper class people picking them up again is HOW the cycle of what's fashionable changes. Saying that we have to freeze it right here is arbitrary.

[D4M10N]

I would not be comfortable drawing a line on the other side of which I would tell someone their pain doesnt matter.

Never said it doesn't matter. I've said repeatedly that we have to balance different values against one another, e.g. religious freedom vs. the actual psychic pain of seeing someone blaspheme.




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[superdave]

it used to be that these academic concepts filtered through several sources before hitting the mainstream, but thanks to the internet, they are skipping that filtering process, and I think the net affect is negative.

And this is happening not just in cultural studies but also the harder sciences.  People are able to download and read journal articles and studies without the context they need to understand what they are saying.

This is not to say I don't think cultural appropriation is a problem but I just don't know if as a layperson, I am qualified to use the concept in a meaningful way.

[Harry Black]

it used to be that these academic concepts filtered through several sources before hitting the mainstream, but thanks to the internet, they are skipping that filtering process, and I think the net affect is negative.

And this is happening not just in cultural studies but also the harder sciences.  People are able to download and read journal articles and studies without the context they need to understand what they are saying.

This is not to say I don't think cultural appropriation is a problem but I just don't know if as a layperson, I am qualified to use the concept in a meaningful way.

I do have similar feelings actually.
It would take me some time to gather my thoughts on it and I probably wouldnt have much worth offering though.

I would not be comfortable drawing a line on the other side of which I would tell someone their pain doesnt matter.

Never said it doesn't matter. I've said repeatedly that we have to balance different values against one another, e.g. religious freedom vs. the actual psychic pain of seeing someone blaspheme.




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If you are telling them that their pain is outweighed by someone elses joy, then yes, you are essentially telling them it doesnt matter and saying 'sorrynotsorry'.

Im not really sure what you want from the discussion at this point. You can measure out what you think the balance should be all you like but the people voicing their concerns will still think what they think. The only further productive thing for you to do would be to go and engage them directly.

Redamare,
Clearly hooped earrings were a thing for as long as earrings have been a thing.
Thats not being disputed.
The issue is in how that style was percieved and derided in recent history when it was mostly women of certain demographics wearing them during that period.

The exact same thing has happened in my country with a totally different demographic
That does not invalidate the feelings of women who view a double standard in how they are treated and would prefer if white women did not participate in it for reasons of intersectional solidarity.
Or just so they dont have to have their faces rubbed in how differently they are viewed.

Also- Its not about any one example. Its about a concept and trying to explain more what is not being said at this point. If you have a problem with that specific example, there are loads more in the thread. We dont need to die on that hill.

[arthwollipot]

Alright.  Then I need to think.  We're coming from such different places here that I'm not sure of where to even establish a common language.

English is a good start. From there, perhaps think about the idea that someone might have a point, rather than immediately dismissing them because of your preconceived biases.

If everyone was able to do that, we'd be a lot further down the road than we are.

[arthwollipot]

Whenever I see someone enjoying my culture, I'm happy for them. Wish it was much more common, actually. But maybe you're right. Maybe it causes significant numbers of pther people significant emotional distress. This is, once again, an empirical question.

"If someone wolf-whistled me in the street, I'd take it as a compliment!"

 

[D4M10N]

Whom are you quoting?

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[arthwollipot]

Whom are you quoting?

What's it like to miss the point that hard?

[D4M10N]

"Sometimes when I use quotation marks, I'm actually just attributing views to other people in bad faith."

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[Harry Black]

Except its not bad faith because its blatantly obvious that he isnt implying you actually said that.
It does how ever illustrate to you how you are coming cross and what logic you appear to be operating under.

[D4M10N]

I'd like to see this logic spelled out. How exactly is wolf-whilsting analogous to cultural appropriation?

Wanda: I hate it when men wolf-whistle at me.

Mankato: Why is that?

Wanda: It sorta squicks me out. If they are willing to cross that social boundary, who knows what ethcial boundaries they might cross. 

Mankato: Makes sense. Sexual assault is a widespread social problem.

Wanda: I hate it when I see white girls with braids.

Mankato: Why is that?

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[Redamare]

I think we should all have an attitude of attention and compassion toward the suffering expressed by others.  But I think there's a baseline level of rationality and plausibility we are supposed to reach before these grievances become mainstream etiquette.

I worry that we're in such a hurry to be "woke" that we're skipping that requirement if an idea comes from someone browner than us, or a woman , or in any way uncommon with respect to sex and gender.

And it's not that I'm biased against these groups. Nobody gets to speak for all black people. That means we can't just reduce it to the Most Offended Common Denominator, any more than we can appeal to But My Black Friend Says It's Fine. People deserve rights just because they're people. Demographics, as such, don't deserve anything. They're just abstractions.

[Redamare]

Hoop earrings are not racial! Poor people are always behind the fashion curve. That's just a fact. Black and Latin people in the US tend to be poor. Also a fact. You will see a lot of white women wearing hoop earrings in trailer parks, too, but no one's calling them fashionable.

Fashion changes as small things are able to be integrated a little bit at a time. When a white woman's hoop earrings are called "fashionable", that doesn't mean she could have pulled off any old pair with any old outfit. It means she did something aesthetically creative with them, that probably doesn't intrinsically depend on her being white. I worked for a while with an ethnically Ethiopian chick from LA who was very fashion oriented and could pull off any pair of earrings you wanted to see anytime she damned well felt like it.

[arthwollipot]

I'd like to see this logic spelled out. How exactly is wolf-whilsting analogous to cultural appropriation?

The analogy is between the person who says that wolf-whistling should be taken as a compliment, and the person who says that cultural appropriation should be taken as a compliment. The first is taking something that is offensive, and saying that it shouldn't be offensive. The second is taking something offensive, and saying that it shouldn't be offensive.

See the difference?

[Caffiene]

The analogy is between the person who says that wolf-whistling should be taken as a compliment, and the person who says that cultural appropriation should be taken as a compliment. The first is taking something that is offensive, and saying that it shouldn't be offensive. The second is taking something offensive, and saying that it shouldn't be offensive.

See the difference?

This is very strange to me. So to be clear, in reference to what he originally posted that you paraphrased, are you saying you believe that it is inherently offensive for somebody to enjoy any part of any culture other than their own?

His original post was that he is happy when he sees somebody enjoying his culture, and I cant find any reasonable interpretation of your phrase "taking something offensive" as referring to anything other than the clause "people enjoying my culture".