Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 90395 times)

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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #540 on: April 14, 2017, 02:21:08 PM »

But just in case its where this is going- I will not be answering on more glhypotheticals to help people find any lines (which would be pointless as they would be my lines only)

Does this really seem reasonable to you? To even come right out and admit that you are swearing off hypotheticals "just in case" it goes in a direction not favorable to your position?

I like you, Harry, but that's not intellectually honest behavior. That's...really awful, in fact.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 10:21:37 PM by Redamare »
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #541 on: April 14, 2017, 02:39:59 PM »
But just in case its where this is going- I will not be answering on more glhypotheticals to help people find any lines (which would be pointless as they would be my lines only)

Does this really seem reasonable to you? To even come right out and admit that you are swearing off hypotheticals "just in case" it goes in a direction not favorable to your position?

I like you, Harry, but that's not intellectually honest behavior. That's...really awful, in fact.
That is not why.
There are a couple of reasons:
1- The thought of jumping through various hoops thrown up by people trying to find a line (the concept of which I disagree with) is mind numbing. Its not how I want to spemd my time.

2- As stated, I disagree with your premise. Why would I tacitly accept it by agreeing to what you are suggesting.

3-As I said, any line we find would be my line only. It would not be representative of anyone else, let alone the people affected by cultural appropriation.

4-It would be ridiculous for me to accept the position of someone who can have any influence over the concept or detract from the legitimacy of the claims people may make with regard to it. I dont have that power, that level of knowledge or that right. All I can do is correct basic misconceptions, which is what this thread has mostly been.

I knew I would regret answering your first hypothetical but I did not want to be immediately dismissive because I see us as friends and these conversations can make it hard for people to tell if the other side has forgotten that or not.

I will say though that its amazing how much the principle of charity gets applied to the likes of Spicer and Trump on here but I make one post that requires elaboration and Im chided for intellectual dishonesty when you have known me for years.
I know you personally have not been fighting their corner so to speak, it just felt weird to have you accuse me of that so early.

Offline 6EQUJ5

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #542 on: April 14, 2017, 02:41:13 PM »
But just in case its where this is going- I will not be answering on more glhypotheticals to help people find any lines (which would be pointless as they would be my lines only)

Does this really seem reasonable to you? To even come right out and admit that you are swearing off hypotheticals "just in case" it goes in a direction not favorable to your position?

I like you, Harry, but that's not intellectually honest behavior. That's...really awful, in fact.

It is unreasonable and intellectually dishonest to pose absurd hypotheticals. It comes off as an attempt to bend the original premise into a strawman.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #543 on: April 14, 2017, 04:01:43 PM »
Look, I think you two are confused, and I know one of us has to be.

Hypotheticals of this sort can help me figure out what you are saying and what you aren't saying.

What I'm trying to figure out right now is to what extent, according to your standards, a claim of CA needs to conform to the facts.

And this "You can do what you like, I guess, as long as you understand you're upsetting people.." business rubs me the wrong way, I must say. We've established that upset people are upset. Using it as if it were an argument feels condescending to me, and also seems like hiding behind indignation rather than confronting morally salient facts.

Sometimes people feel frustrated about things, but that doesn't necessarily mean their feelings are manifesting in a legitimate way. Trust me, I work for the Postal Service. I see illegitimate anger all the time.
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #544 on: April 14, 2017, 04:49:12 PM »
I thought I might get an apology but no worries.

The thing is that I personally am not making any argument other than to address what I see as misconceptions of the concept we are discussing and to say that yes, the only thing to acknowledge is that you may be upsetting some people and not everyone thinks thats cool.

I dont see anything else that needs to be confronted. I dont know what we would be debating. I really think its just a difference of values.
But if you want to discuss the legitimacy of peoples feelings in more detail then you will have to take it up with them because the people in question have enough shit with having their versions of events questioned and dismissed (like the approach many of us had to police violence until good phone cameras were a thing) without someone like me misrepresenting them and being used as a stand in so that someone can detract from their credibility even more.
I know you, I know thats nowhere near a goal you have but I feel like thats what would be happening regardless and Im choosing to decline.
If you want to think its because Im scared my mind will change and I will suddenly...fit in with everyone around me irl? Then thats fine. Im not going to do a Marty McFly and come running back just because you called me chicken.

Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #545 on: April 14, 2017, 05:51:26 PM »
I do apologize for any offense I have given.

I guess I still am struggling with your position. If I were to say "Well, it doesn't matter if the grievance about hoops is based entirely on confusion. The important thing is that these people are upset and the decent thing would be to not antagonize them I their distress." that would have repercussions that would compromise my whole moral philosophy."

Imagine if we said that about anti-vax moms?  How do we stop people from just trolling by pretending to think something ahistorical and kicking up a fuss about it?
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #546 on: April 14, 2017, 06:10:30 PM »
The stakes are different though.
Children wont die if my sister doesnt wesr hooped earrings.
She wont be denied earrings in general if she chooses not to wesr that style, just as I wont go unclothed just because I choose not to wear a shirt insulting religious people.

If we indulge anti-vaxxers then people die. Not so with >insert cultural appropriation case that has been raised<
If the very worst risk you run is that of indulging a troll then I think its probably fine.
Its also a similar argument to the trans people in bathrooms (logically, not morally) whereby people are so worried about the edge case who might be faking that they want to deny an entire demographic a thing that is very important to them.

This reminds me somewhat of a conversation I had with a close friend yesterday who is more experienced in these issues than myself.
I expressed concern that a certain person was getting a double standard for a certain shitty thing she did because she was black. I was worried that it was the thing people who criticise libs always warn about- A dangerous echo chamber with no recourse to logic.

My friend had not heard of the issue so I went looking for the story and in vetting it before sending, I realised that the people with the sycophantic take were literally just one outlet. And even that was given with lots of asterisks. I realised that I had conflated one outlet with a movement and that this woman actually had been taken to task.

My point is- I think the reality of how and when CA gets brought up and what people want 'enforced' may not be as bad as you seem to think. I dont think there is a risk to freedom here.

Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #547 on: April 14, 2017, 06:32:18 PM »
It's not like there isn't any downside to telling white folks to stay in their own cultural lane, though. Ethno-nationalism (which I assume we all recognize as a threat) is grounded on that ethos.

Anyhow, here is another non-hypothetical: https://www.google.com/search?q=Mehendi+art&client=ms-android-att-us&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch

After the white girls trade in their hoop earrings, should they also stop doing this?

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #548 on: April 14, 2017, 06:52:47 PM »

I looked for a facepalm gif, but couldn't find a good enough one.

In other words, "I've got nothing."

Be sure not to mistake "I decline to engage with your crappy argument" for "I concede defeat".
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #549 on: April 14, 2017, 07:01:34 PM »
Look, guys, it's very simple. So simple, in fact, that it is utterly stunning to me how and why some people might fail to understand it.

It's about not being a dick to other people.

If someone doesn't like something you are doing, you can either stop doing it - in which case that person won't think that you are a dick, or you can continue doing it - in which case that person will think you are a dick.

If you don't care that they think you are a dick, then by all means keep doing that thing. But that person is then likely to tell other people what a dick you are, and soon you'll get a reputation as a dick, and no-one will like you.

For example, I already don't like people who think it's okay to be a dick. I don't think it's worth engaging with them or their arguments.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 07:05:34 PM by arthwollipot »
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #550 on: April 14, 2017, 07:19:12 PM »


If someone doesn't like something you are doing, you can either stop doing it - in which case that person won't think that you are a dick, or you can continue doing it - in which case that person will think you are a dick.

I don't like these sorts of posts.

Please stop doing it.

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #551 on: April 14, 2017, 07:31:54 PM »


If someone doesn't like something you are doing, you can either stop doing it - in which case that person won't think that you are a dick, or you can continue doing it - in which case that person will think you are a dick.

I don't like these sorts of posts.

Please stop doing it.

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See, now I think you're just being a dick.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #552 on: April 14, 2017, 07:37:14 PM »
Back at you. Now stop.

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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #553 on: April 14, 2017, 07:38:04 PM »
Look, guys, it's very simple. So simple, in fact, that it is utterly stunning to me how and why some people might fail to understand it.

It's about not being a dick to other people.

If someone doesn't like something you are doing, you can either stop doing it - in which case that person won't think that you are a dick, or you can continue doing it - in which case that person will think you are a dick.

If you don't care that they think you are a dick, then by all means keep doing that thing. But that person is then likely to tell other people what a dick you are, and soon you'll get a reputation as a dick, and no-one will like you.

For example, I already don't like people who think it's okay to be a dick. I don't think it's worth engaging with them or their arguments.

This isn't what I am talking about. It's a tautology: if you upset people, those people will be upset.

There are people close to me who are upset that I don't believe in God. Half of my country is upset that I am Liberal. Presumably you wouldn't make that sort of statement if we were discussing these issues?
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #554 on: April 14, 2017, 07:39:54 PM »
Look, guys, it's very simple. So simple, in fact, that it is utterly stunning to me how and why some people might fail to understand it.

It's about not being a dick to other people.

If someone doesn't like something you are doing, you can either stop doing it - in which case that person won't think that you are a dick, or you can continue doing it - in which case that person will think you are a dick.

If you don't care that they think you are a dick, then by all means keep doing that thing. But that person is then likely to tell other people what a dick you are, and soon you'll get a reputation as a dick, and no-one will like you.

For example, I already don't like people who think it's okay to be a dick. I don't think it's worth engaging with them or their arguments.

This isn't what I am talking about. It's a tautology: if you upset people, those people will be upset.

There are people close to me who are upset that I don't believe in God. Half of my country is upset that I am Liberal. Presumably you wouldn't make that sort of statement if we were discussing these issues?
Wow, you've got me there.

In a different discussion I might make a different statement. Gosh, that was hard.
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