Author Topic: some thoughts on cultural appropriation  (Read 90434 times)

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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #555 on: April 14, 2017, 07:55:26 PM »
A different statement, in defiance of the general principle you've put forth here.

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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #556 on: April 14, 2017, 08:07:57 PM »
In order to make it an analogous statement you would have to modify it somewhat. If you, an atheist, were going up to religious people and telling them that they're delusional, then that would make you a dick. For Redamare's suggestion to be analogous, you would have to be offending black people simply by being white.

See the difference? People getting offended at you simply existing while atheist is not the same thing as people getting offended at you for taking their stuff and claiming it as your own. Hence, different discussion and different statement.

And before you ask, yes, people who get offended at your mere existence are also dicks. But that's not the discussion. That's a different discussion.
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #557 on: April 14, 2017, 08:15:52 PM »
Look, guys, it's very simple. So simple, in fact, that it is utterly stunning to me how and why some people might fail to understand it.

It's about not being a dick to other people.

If someone doesn't like something you are doing, you can either stop doing it - in which case that person won't think that you are a dick, or you can continue doing it - in which case that person will think you are a dick.

If you don't care that they think you are a dick, then by all means keep doing that thing. But that person is then likely to tell other people what a dick you are, and soon you'll get a reputation as a dick, and no-one will like you.

For example, I already don't like people who think it's okay to be a dick. I don't think it's worth engaging with them or their arguments.

This isn't what I am talking about. It's a tautology: if you upset people, those people will be upset.

There are people close to me who are upset that I don't believe in God. Half of my country is upset that I am Liberal. Presumably you wouldn't make that sort of statement if we were discussing these issues?

As I said earlier, Red, its about balancing harms.  There are causes worth offending or otherwise harming other people over, and You have to decide which those are for you.  But don't be surprised if people think you're a dick if you judge your disappointment in forgoing that killer "tribal" tat over the offense you cause the man whose life story you've stolen in the name of fashion.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #558 on: April 14, 2017, 08:19:40 PM »
I wasn't aware that (pseudo)tribal tats conveyed a life story. This is a new wrinkle indeed, akin to stolen valor.

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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #559 on: April 14, 2017, 08:40:56 PM »
"I refuse to talk in hypotheticals" is a never-fails hallmark of somebody with an irrational position. Hypotheticals are a wonderful way to explore any subject dealing in ethics and philosophy; refusal to answer hypotheticals means that one knows their position will be turned into swiss cheese by answering them.

Having stepped back from this thread, I really appreciate those on both "sides" who are conversing politely, it's a really interesting and important discussion.
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Offline NEKSkeptic

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #560 on: April 14, 2017, 08:53:27 PM »
"I refuse to talk in hypotheticals" is a never-fails hallmark of somebody with an irrational position. Hypotheticals are a wonderful way to explore any subject dealing in ethics and philosophy;

Socrates would agree.   

Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #561 on: April 14, 2017, 08:56:16 PM »
"I refuse to talk in hypotheticals" is a never-fails hallmark of somebody with an irrational position. Hypotheticals are a wonderful way to explore any subject dealing in ethics and philosophy;

Socrates would agree.

I'm a sucker for the ancient Greeks, for sure--though I consider myself a bit more a Plato person.
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #562 on: April 14, 2017, 09:14:30 PM »
I wasn't aware that (pseudo)tribal tats conveyed a life story. This is a new wrinkle indeed, akin to stolen valor.

There are more parallels between cultural appropriation and stolen valor that you might not have considered.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #563 on: April 14, 2017, 09:27:38 PM »
Do tell.

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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #564 on: April 14, 2017, 10:18:18 PM »
(which would be pointless as they would be my lines only)

been thinking about this bit for a while...

What is it you think I'm bringing to this? I'm nobody all that special, really. I don't even have a bachelor's degree. I can't expect to touch the mind of God through this forum. I sure hope you aren't, either.

I hear things, politically, that come from what I have always considered my own side, that make me say to myself, "one of us is missing something. I know what it sounds like they're missing from my point of view. I don't know what I am missing, because I am missing it by definition. I need to discuss this with other people until I can see enough to decide."

Granted this is tacit in any debate. But it's so salient here, because I'm not trying to rebel. I'm not wishing to cozy up to "Team Trump". I want to feel like this is my in-group, even though I am more ambivalent than most toward group/tribe thinking. But I can't just allow myself to be swallowed up by groupthink. I have to do my best to be a little organelle that filters out bullshit, because that is what we try to be in this community.

The only place I can look for answers is into the minds of other people. This is one of the least shitty places to do that on the whole damned internet.  But I can't go looking for someone smart enough to just tell me what to think. That doesn't resolve the problem. I have to throw ideas into the minds of whoever is willing to engage in this exercise and see what bounces back. You'll do, Harry.

And stay away from people who tell you that your thoughts on some things don't count. They aren't your friends. Yes, you have your own context, but you also have an incredible organ that can learn and imagine and improve itself by discipline and knowledge. The ideologies that have the gall to disdain such a treasure are everywhere, hiding in plain sight.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #565 on: April 14, 2017, 10:34:29 PM »
I wasn't aware that (pseudo)tribal tats conveyed a life story. This is a new wrinkle indeed, akin to stolen valor.

There are more parallels between cultural appropriation and stolen valor that you might not have considered.
It's the whole crux of the Native American headdress issue, for example.

No, Arth, I don't think that all examples of cultural appropriation are equivalent to being offended by my existence.
 
But there's got to be a definition for "cultural appropriation" that includes things like the Headdress but pointedly excludes things like the hoops. We can't permit things to be simply made up.

Unless, that is, anyone here wants to argue that I didn't succeed in making the point that it was an idiotic example earlier in the thread. I've noticed no one has explicitly defended it since, but neither has anyone conceded the point.

ETA:Being an atheist is apt because I, a male who will never wear hoop earrings in his life, married to a woman who will never wear anything other than two studs in each ear for the rest of hers, in all apparent likelihood, am still being offensive merely by believing that this is bullshit. And don't forget the whole bit about I'm an astampcollecting, acomicreading, nonorphanadopter, and we don't have interest groups for that. Bald is not a hair color, right? "Atheist" isn't a thing, it's a nonthing. It often entails being offensive merely by believing that this is bullshit.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 11:48:46 PM by Redamare »
"redamare has kicked this thread's ass" -champagnej

Certainty is the enemy of wisdom.

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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #566 on: April 14, 2017, 11:07:44 PM »
Some good thoughts there, Red. Nicely said.
Strange women lying in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government.

Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #567 on: April 14, 2017, 11:53:23 PM »
Thank you. Hope your good opinion survived my editing.
"redamare has kicked this thread's ass" -champagnej

Certainty is the enemy of wisdom.

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Offline Drunken Idaho

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #568 on: April 15, 2017, 12:09:14 AM »
Thank you. Hope your good opinion survived my editing.

Nope, now I hate you and disregard all of your ideas due to your lack of philately.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: some thoughts on cultural appropriation
« Reply #569 on: April 15, 2017, 12:18:54 AM »
Do you habitually collect anything you handle as part of your work?
"redamare has kicked this thread's ass" -champagnej

Certainty is the enemy of wisdom.

--RED-uh-MAR-ay--