Author Topic: No Cash Accepted.  (Read 1322 times)

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Offline 2397

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2017, 07:37:08 PM »
I think if we were going to scrap cash (which I'm against on anonymity grounds alone), that we'd also have to scrap privately owned card companies. If card and bank transactions were the only ways to use your money, that should be part of public systems paid for by public funds, and not something potentially run by a private monopoly or an oligopoly.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 07:40:17 PM by 2397 »

Online Mr. Beagle

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 08:01:32 PM »
As I have before noted, money is simply denominated choice, where we have some cultural consensus on the denominating body.

Issues arise where we try to covert between denominating bodies, or where the body can't hold the value predictable.

There is likely yet another evolution beyond Bitcoin where the denomination is more stable and the denominating body more culturally acceptable.
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Offline Noisy Rhysling

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2017, 08:53:54 PM »
My mom-lawyerly understanding was that one can't refuse to accept cash for post-paid goods and services.
I wonder if they can refuse to take one half million pennies as payment in full to the IRS for back taxes.
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Online BilLumberg

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2017, 08:59:11 PM »
There are a few restaurants that won't take cash around here. The reason I was told is that the employees can't steal as easily from the owner.

Online Mr. Beagle

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2017, 09:11:01 PM »
My mom-lawyerly understanding was that one can't refuse to accept cash for post-paid goods and services.
I wonder if they can refuse to take one half million pennies as payment in full to the IRS for back taxes.
So Snopes says there is no US Federal law mandating businesses accept cash in any form. So likely businesses can refuse pennies. The government itself? Probably.

http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp

« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 09:13:45 PM by Mr. Beagle »
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Offline jt512

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2017, 09:27:04 PM »
My mom-lawyerly understanding was that one can't refuse to accept cash for post-paid goods and services.
I wonder if they can refuse to take one half million pennies as payment in full to the IRS for back taxes.
So Snopes says there is no US Federal law mandating businesses accept cash in any form. So likely businesses can refuse pennies. The government itself? Probably.

http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp

The Fed itself says that there is no Federal law mandating that businesses accept cash.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

Offline The Latinist

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2017, 09:27:45 PM »
They have to accept cash in any denomination as payment for debts, just not as payment for goods and services.  My question is whether after I have eaten food and been presented with a bill, I am not, in fact a debtor who is entitled to discharge his debts in any legal tender.
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Offline jt512

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2017, 09:29:06 PM »
They have to accept cash in any denomination as payment for debts, just not as payment for goods and services.

That's wrong.  See the link to the Fed in my last post.

Offline murraybiscuit

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2017, 10:02:56 PM »
Healthcare clinics have stopped accepting cash here, despite it being illegal (in Norway). It's been in the news recently with the consumer protection agency complaining to the health department.

So basically you can still use cash. If they refuse, they're the ones breaking the law, but it's probably going to be problematic.
IIRC Norway is on the other extreme. They are basically planning on becoming cashless in retail over the next few years. There was a really good freakonomics episode on the subject.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2017, 11:22:05 PM »
They have to accept cash in any denomination as payment for debts, just not as payment for goods and services.

That's wrong.  See the link to the Fed in my last post.

It says: "This statute means that all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services."  This agrees exactly with what I said: there is no obligation to accept cash as a payment for goods and services, but there is an obligation to accept cash for debts.  If the issue is that you are thinking the words "offer of payment" means that you can offer it but they don't have to accept it, then I think that you are mistaken in your interpretation: offer of payment is a legal term; if an offer of payment tendered to a person with the authority to discharge a debt is refused, then under the UCC that debt is discharged.  If I am billed an amount and offer payment in full in cash, my creditor cannot refuse to accept it.
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Offline jt512

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2017, 12:25:25 AM »
They have to accept cash in any denomination as payment for debts, just not as payment for goods and services.

That's wrong.  See the link to the Fed in my last post.

It says: "This statute means that all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services."  This agrees exactly with what I said: there is no obligation to accept cash as a payment for goods and services, but there is an obligation to accept cash for debts.  If the issue is that you are thinking the words "offer of payment" means that you can offer it but they don't have to accept it, then I think that you are mistaken in your interpretation: offer of payment is a legal term; if an offer of payment tendered to a person with the authority to discharge a debt is refused, then under the UCC that debt is discharged.  If I am billed an amount and offer payment in full in cash, my creditor cannot refuse to accept it.

And how does that differ from paying your restaurant bill?

Offline jt512

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2017, 12:45:59 AM »
They have to accept cash in any denomination as payment for debts, just not as payment for goods and services.

That's wrong.  See the link to the Fed in my last post.

It says: "This statute means that all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services."  This agrees exactly with what I said: there is no obligation to accept cash as a payment for goods and services, but there is an obligation to accept cash for debts.  If the issue is that you are thinking the words "offer of payment" means that you can offer it but they don't have to accept it, then I think that you are mistaken in your interpretation: offer of payment is a legal term; if an offer of payment tendered to a person with the authority to discharge a debt is refused, then under the UCC that debt is discharged.  If I am billed an amount and offer payment in full in cash, my creditor cannot refuse to accept it.

After reading the second paragraph here I'm inclined to agree with your interpretation.

Offline 2397

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2017, 01:31:58 AM »
Healthcare clinics have stopped accepting cash here, despite it being illegal (in Norway). It's been in the news recently with the consumer protection agency complaining to the health department.

So basically you can still use cash. If they refuse, they're the ones breaking the law, but it's probably going to be problematic.
IIRC Norway is on the other extreme. They are basically planning on becoming cashless in retail over the next few years. There was a really good freakonomics episode on the subject.

Our largest bank DNB is planning on it and pushing for it. But recently they've also muddled their case, having had their online banking services be unavailable for hours at a time, multiple times during the last several months. Many blame it on them cutting domestic staff to the bone, and having no technically minded people on the board, outsourcing a lot of the operational stuff to India.

They've also made an app for transferring money that's had a lot of problems as well.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2017, 09:01:29 AM »
So Snopes says there is no US Federal law mandating businesses accept cash in any form. So likely businesses can refuse pennies. The government itself? Probably.

http://www.snopes.com/business/money/pennies.asp


Thanks for posting this. I was one of those folks who always believed that pennies are not legal tender, but everything above is. So I thought you could not pay your bills (or your taxes) in all pennies, but you could do so in nickels.

Of course you can pay your taxes in any denominations of paper currency. (I now have no idea about, e.g., paying your taxes in pennies or dimes.) The marijuana thread talks about marijuana stores having to pay their taxes in cash. This leads me to an unrelated story: There are people who insist that paper money (which they call "fiat money") has no actual value. Many of them also insist that the income tax is unconstitutional. I used to know a few of these types. I suggested to them that they should pay their unconstitutional income taxes with worthless paper money. They'd be giving the government something of no value, but the government would be satisfied and would leave them alone. None of them ever offered me an argument against this idea.
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Offline PANTS!

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Re: No Cash Accepted.
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2017, 09:40:47 AM »
The definition of legal tender as required to be accepted for debits is really, really important.  It is actually a civil right, IMHO.  Why?  Because it used to be that you could enact perpetual indebtedness by refusing to accept all forms of repayment.
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