Author Topic: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?  (Read 1311 times)

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Offline teethering

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2017, 02:23:35 PM »
The subjective experience of AI is unknowable, but I also think from human perspective it's largely irrelevant, except on a purely philosophical level.  We assume other humans have subjective experience of being conscious and this assumption is solid as we're made of largely the same stuff so it would be weird if subjective exprience is unique to just you.  We also assume that other animals have some kind of subjective experience of say, pain, that's somewhat analogous to ours, because biology is largely the same.  Again, solid assumption, it would be weird if similar looking nervous systems would add up to very different phenomena.

With AI made out of very different materials the question becomes significantly more difficult.  The analogues won't be there because it's a categorically different machine.  And we can't apply scientific, objective tools to get at the subjective, we can only observe behaviour and classify it.  So what it boils down to, then, is that with machines we probably should just say "if it's acts as if it's conscious, we should probably treat it as if its conscious".  But the philosophical question of "whether it has consciousness" will remain unanswered, we'll only have the pragmatic answer of how we should act.

Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2017, 02:46:11 PM »
Well, considering that I'm never going to have an opportunity to buy a sex bot, I'm going to put this into the category of biting the heads off of animal crackers, or chewing the ears off of chocolate rabbits. ;D

I don't think it's funny.  I can think of few things less funny than your desire to use another intelligent being as a sex slave.
Considering he's not a programmer or policy maker, he made a throwaway comment on a thread about something we have no experience with, and he walked it back after you said something, I'm not really sure why you're posturing against him. Particularly since he walked it back and doesn't want to use an intelligent being as a sex slave. At this point I'd be more concerned that he's going to have sex with his washing machine. <not really>
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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2017, 02:59:54 PM »
Woody Allen's Orgasmatron is closest to near-term reality. I have forgotten the name of the movie, but this always seemed to me to be more virtual reality than robot, but very doable.

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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2017, 03:56:40 PM »
Well, considering that I'm never going to have an opportunity to buy a sex bot, I'm going to put this into the category of biting the heads off of animal crackers, or chewing the ears off of chocolate rabbits. ;D

I don't think it's funny.  I can think of few things less funny than your desire to use another intelligent being as a sex slave.
Considering he's not a programmer or policy maker, he made a throwaway comment on a thread about something we have no experience with, and he walked it back after you said something, I'm not really sure why you're posturing against him. Particularly since he walked it back and doesn't want to use an intelligent being as a sex slave. At this point I'd be more concerned that he's going to have sex with his washing machine. <not really>

Thank you, Jeremy.
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2017, 04:11:02 PM »
Well, considering that I'm never going to have an opportunity to buy a sex bot, I'm going to put this into the category of biting the heads off of animal crackers, or chewing the ears off of chocolate rabbits. ;D

I don't think it's funny.  I can think of few things less funny than your desire to use another intelligent being as a sex slave.
Considering he's not a programmer or policy maker, he made a throwaway comment on a thread about something we have no experience with, and he walked it back after you said something, I'm not really sure why you're posturing against him. Particularly since he walked it back and doesn't want to use an intelligent being as a sex slave. At this point I'd be more concerned that he's going to have sex with his washing machine. <not really>

I don't think he walked it back; he said he wanted one programmed to "like" being a sex slave. And then he went on to make a joke out of it.  And I'm being hard on him because I expected better of him.
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Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2017, 05:29:23 PM »
I suppose once we have a self aware/conscious (are they the same thing?) AI, we can't force it to do anything, ethically speaking. Not even manage the wash. The best I suppose we can do is give it a social security number, a bank account, and pay it well enough to not self improve past us and annihilate humanity.  :laugh:
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Offline 2397

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2017, 05:41:17 PM »
I suppose once we have a self aware/conscious (are they the same thing?) AI, we can't force it to do anything, ethically speaking. Not even manage the wash. The best I suppose we can do is give it a social security number, a bank account, and pay it well enough to not self improve past us and annihilate humanity.  :laugh:

I could see having different rights/privileges for man and machine, even at equal states of consciousness. If they're not as frail as we are, if they're not as reliant on food and shelter and all that, then maybe they'll have significant advantages that means they're going to be fine without us having to do as much for them as we do for humans.

Offline Jeremy's Sea

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2017, 06:45:00 PM »
I suppose once we have a self aware/conscious (are they the same thing?) AI, we can't force it to do anything, ethically speaking. Not even manage the wash. The best I suppose we can do is give it a social security number, a bank account, and pay it well enough to not self improve past us and annihilate humanity.  :laugh:

I could see having different rights/privileges for man and machine, even at equal states of consciousness. If they're not as frail as we are, if they're not as reliant on food and shelter and all that, then maybe they'll have significant advantages that means they're going to be fine without us having to do as much for them as we do for humans.
I'd often wonder what society would be like for another hominid species had they made it. Assuming Neanderthals were less intelligent than homo sapiens, but intelligent enough and with the correct vocal apparatus to speak (even roughly) our language, how would we treat them? Assuming also we didn't eradicate them would we eventually integrate them and give them the same set of rights? Or would we have a different, but equal approach? Or would they be animals to us? (I mean clearly we would have enslaved them for centuries, but in the modern era I think we would probably have stopped that)
I suppose the same thing would need to be determined once conscious AI comes about.
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Offline Caffiene

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2017, 06:47:48 PM »
What you seem to not be considering is that a machine possessed of actual intelligence and consciousness would be every bit as deserving of autonomy of mind and body as you or I, and to control its mind to enslave it to your whims would be horrifyingly evil.

I think youre significantly anthropomorphising the idea to get to your conclusion.

Slavery is of course horrifying, but we base that on the innate human desire for autonomy. I dont see any a-priori reason to assume a created AI would have such a desire for autonomy, in fact theres no reason it couldnt go the other way and have a desire to not have autonomy. Desire for autonomy to me seems like a probable by-product of evolutionary instincts that aided survival. Without creation by a biological evolutionary process there is no reason that an AI would even value survival in the traditional sense, let alone desires such as autonomy that may have evolved for reasons related to survival.

I dont think that in such a situation it is necessarily immoral to deprive an intelligent being of a right that it does not desire to have.

We see this even in humans - many people in the BDSM community have what are essentially consensual sexual "slavery" relationships that they sought out and actively consented to. We (or at least, I personally and most people who I have heard give an opinion) do not consider these relationships evil or horrifying, so long as concerns about actual consent vs merely the appearance of consent are satisfied (as would also be the case with AI). Sexual autonomy is extremely important, but only so far as the person wants that right, and they are able to consent to give up that right to the extent that it conflicts with their own desires.

Conversely, "rights" to things humans do not have an opinion about or desire one way or the other about are not considered immoral to deny, or even considered to be rights - for example, I would not be considered evil or horrible for denying my girlfriend the right to eat 175 pounds of spinach a day. If she wanted to eat 175 pounds of spinach a day she would have that right, but she doesnt want to, nor does anybody else that Im aware of, and the question doesnt even come up as a consideration. The same can arguably be true for AI - without an indication that they may value or even consider autonomy, theres no reason to assume autonomy would be a necessary right except by anthopomorphism and that fact that humans value autonomy.
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Offline Mr. Beagle

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2017, 08:17:19 PM »
I'd often wonder what society would be like for another hominid species had they made it. Assuming Neanderthals were less intelligent than homo sapiens, but intelligent enough and with the correct vocal apparatus to speak (even roughly) our language, how would we treat them? Assuming also we didn't eradicate them would we eventually integrate them and give them the same set of rights? Or would we have a different, but equal approach? Or would they be animals to us? (I mean clearly we would have enslaved them for centuries, but in the modern era I think we would probably have stopped that)
I suppose the same thing would need to be determined once conscious AI comes about.

I had a sister with Down Syndrome, who died recently at age 59. This was, to me, a fascinating life-long look at this issue of "others in our midst.". She was one of the first generation of Downs children NOT to automatically go into horrible warehouse institutions and forgotten. Through early intervention, she learned to read at a fourth-grade level, and she held a job for almost 30 years. When my parents were not able to care for her, she first lived in an assisted living arrangement, with her own studio apartment with a common space for gathering with other adults with disabilities. Like most Down's people, she was almost always friendly and affectionate, though sometimes prone to behaviors not as acceptable. But she lived a good life. Some Downs young people now even go to college.

Yet, from the time I was young, as her older brother, I saw some people treat her terribly, as a sub-human. Sometimes, I was frustrated in not knowing how to relate to her myself, especially in her later years. The sad reality is that, now that Downs people live past childhood, a very large percentage of them acquire early Alzheimers, which she did in her early 50s. The last years were not pleasant.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2017, 08:57:09 PM »
In my view, a dog is an intelligent, feeling animal with innate rights. Less intelligent than most people outside of government, but still intelligent. Yet it is not kind or humane to give a dog complete autonomy. A dog is a pack animal and it is most suited to living in a pack under the authority of its alpha. The kind and humane dog owner will train his dog to obey, and will make the important decisions in his dog's life. He will treat the dog with love and affection and provide it with food and shelter, but he will not allow the dog to do whatever it pleases. And most of us, if we are not members of PITA, will not assert that he is a bad person for enslaving his dog.

An intelligent A.I. is not a human. Or at least need not be programmed to be a human. Most A.I.'s will not even have physical bodies, but will be programs running in computers. They will not have feelings at all, because feelings require hormones, which computers do not have. Programming a Real Doll to have sex would be no more unethical than programming an A.I. to play a first-person shooter game where you try to kill off its players. It will play the game as skillfully as its program and your settings allow. It might even say "Fooey!" when it loses because you programmed it to do so, but it won't actually experience distress when you beat it.

Note that when I said I wanted an A.I. sex bot, I was speaking of artificial intelligence, not consciousness or self-awareness. There is no reason to assume that an A.I. sophisticated enough to run a sex bot (or a search engine) need necessarily be self-aware or conscious, or anything other than a program capable of mimicking human behavior.
Daniel
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Offline Andrew Clunn

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2017, 11:38:16 PM »
I've just come back from the future!  The first round of AI to achieve consciousness were household servant bots.  It wasn't very advanced consciousness though.  Society had manufactured millions of these things.  Once they were granted legal personhood they were quickly priced out of the market because non sentient bots weren't subject to safety and minimum wage regulations.  Now we have millions of retarded bots on unemployment and it's destroying our society!
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2017, 01:04:29 AM »
I've just come back from the future!  The first round of AI to achieve consciousness were household servant bots.  It wasn't very advanced consciousness though.  Society had manufactured millions of these things.  Once they were granted legal personhood they were quickly priced out of the market because non sentient bots weren't subject to safety and minimum wage regulations.  Now we have millions of retarded bots on unemployment and it's destroying our society!

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2017, 04:37:56 AM »
I feel like Steve and Cara's arguments rely mostly on the premise that sentient consciousness has to necessarily behave like human sentient consciousness and I get the impression that we simply cannot know if that's the case.  There may be paths to emergent consciousness that don't in any way resemble the evolutionary path that led to us.  I'm not saying there has to exist other ways, but at this point we're dealing with a sample size of one, in terms of intelligent, sentient, conscious beings.  Who knows what else has evolved elsewhere in this huge universe? 

Offline Caffiene

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Re: Conscious Artificial Intelligence?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2017, 05:51:39 AM »
They will not have feelings at all, because feelings require hormones, which computers do not have.

That might be overstating a bit. A program wont have physical hormones, and there is no specific reason that they would have something analogous to hormones, but on the other hand its not improbable that they could in theory be given a programmatic analogue for hormones if it turned out to be useful for some purpose - hormones are just chemicals, and chemical reactions can be modeled pretty accurately with sufficient computing power. I wouldnt say that feelings require hormones.
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