Author Topic: Fearless Girl  (Read 4057 times)

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Offline Nemmzy

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2017, 11:30:03 AM »
Ethically, I would say he has an argument if his own work was installed with permission. Given it wasn't he doesn't. I know too little about Copy Right to understand his legal standing.

Offline daniel1948

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2017, 02:18:30 PM »
Ethically, I would say he has an argument if his own work was installed with permission. Given it wasn't he doesn't. I know too little about Copy Right to understand his legal standing.

I disagree. He'd have a valid argument if he had a contract stating that no other works would be installed within X feet of his, or if he owned the land or some other form of legal control over the land. Say I own a stretch of land next to a public right of way, and an artist wants to display his work there. He puts it there at night without my permission, but I like it so I decide to let it stay. Another artist has a beef to pick with the work (pun intended) and puts another work next to the first one, designed to make the first one look bad. Again, it's my land, and I am amused by the concept, so I allow it to stay. The first artist has no right to complain.

So far, we're agreed, because he didn't get permission.

But now say the first artist asked me for permission to put his work on my land and I agreed. As long as I didn't grant him exclusive right to the space, he's still got no right to complain about the second work, though he does have the right to remove his work if he still owns it. Permission to install a work does not imply exclusive rights to the space it's on.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2017, 04:55:27 PM »
He has no rights here, legally. But I get his beef.





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Offline PANTS!

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2017, 05:30:18 PM »
The Girl is a bull rider. As the bull charges at her, she will side-step it, grab it by the horns, swing onto its back, and ride it

But as a symbol, it doesnt actually show any of that. Its not contradictory to anything in the statue, but neither does anything in the statue suggest it. As I said earlier, it seems it requires a lot more explanation than what is apparent just from the symbolism of the art itself in order to be understood.

There is something to be said for the audience bringing their own subjective interpretation to a piece, but I think theres a limit to what should be considered "interpretation". Eg, I think it stretches the definition to say "The Mona Lisa is an artwork about female empowerment because secretly she is a vampire hunter who fights monsters". Theres a difference between an interpretation based on what an artwork conveys, and creating a new work of fiction that merely uses the original as a base.

I accept your interpretation as valid for yourself.   :laugh:
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2017, 09:50:35 PM »
I was just about to say, the thing that confuses me is what facing down the bull is supposed to represent. The bull and that statue specifically, in context of Wall Street and the stock markets, is a symbol of financial prosperity and optimism (eg, a "bull market"). Why would one face that down, and why for international womens day specifically?

I don't know much about art and even less about finance, but for me, the girl is standing up to a bully. Wall Street runs roughshod over the less-fortunate, and often ignores or delegitimises the hardships that people who don't have the privilege of lots of money endure. The defiant girl is standing up to them, saying "Here I am - I'm not frightened by you or what you represent." The fact that it's a girl also adds the message that girls are strong, and they can and should stand up to the bullies.

I checked this - the etymology of the word "bully" is not related to the word "bull". That was going to be a part of my argument :(

Offline Caffiene

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2017, 11:52:34 PM »
I was just about to say, the thing that confuses me is what facing down the bull is supposed to represent. The bull and that statue specifically, in context of Wall Street and the stock markets, is a symbol of financial prosperity and optimism (eg, a "bull market"). Why would one face that down, and why for international womens day specifically?

I don't know much about art and even less about finance, but for me, the girl is standing up to a bully. Wall Street runs roughshod over the less-fortunate, and often ignores or delegitimises the hardships that people who don't have the privilege of lots of money endure. The defiant girl is standing up to them, saying "Here I am - I'm not frightened by you or what you represent." The fact that it's a girl also adds the message that girls are strong, and they can and should stand up to the bullies.

Sure, but the bull isnt the symbol of wall street by itself. The bull and the bear as symbols together cover the finance industry, but this is specifically just the bull - the prosperity / optimism part of wall street. Standing up to wall street is fine, but specifically standing up against the economic prosperity part of wall street seems like a strange message. (And neither the prosperity part nor the bully part are the message intended by the artist, presumably, since according to wikipedia the artwork was commissioned by "State Street Global Advisors", the worlds third largest asset manager. The claimed intent is about gender representation in management)

Wikipedia also mentions feminist critique that hates the statue because their interpretation is that it is showing brave women as small, child-like / childish, non threatening, etc.

Its ok for an artwork to not have a strongly defined symbology and be an "eye of the beholder" type piece, but I think its fair to say in this case this is one such piece - its message and symbology are very vague and/or confused. I think its an artwork that does not make a statement of its own.
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Offline janine.b

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2017, 04:47:36 AM »
I had no idea about the bull and bear markets until yesterday morning when I was discussing it with my partner. He didn't know of either statue (we're British) but he had heard of bull markets. He didn't actually know what a bull market was though he'd just heard of them. The prosperity and optimism symbolism is probably lost on anyone that isn't aware of what a bull market is.

The bull had always seemed weird to me. Aggressiveness, bull in a china shop type, as someone else said, being a bully and walking all over other people type things is what I'd always thought of when I'd seen it. He is a particularly aggressive looking bull. So nothing positive when it comes to people dealing with finance. Sort of fits a lot of people's thoughts on the financial world these days maybe?

I don't really know if I like the fearless girl.




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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2017, 04:54:07 AM »
I knew about bull and bear, in a very vague sort of sense. But the original sculpture is of a bull and not of a bear. The bear's existence is only implied by the presence of the bull, if that.

Offline Caffiene

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2017, 06:47:51 AM »
I knew about bull and bear, in a very vague sort of sense. But the original sculpture is of a bull and not of a bear. The bear's existence is only implied by the presence of the bull, if that.

It was created in response to the 1987 stock market crash. The absence of the bear is kind of the point - its a "cheer up" kind of message about optimism. The bear was the financial situation at the time, the bull was the part that needed reminding.
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Offline Redamare

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2017, 08:18:12 AM »
There's an argument to be made that the Bull represents the evils of Wall Street better than the Bear would. Since, often, the stock market can be doing very well, even though wages are still stagnant, people are worried and desperate, and there is no particular sign of things getting better for working Americans.

That would make the girl standing up to the Bull quite appropriate. However, it's not clear if the people actually behind the Fearless Girl are in a good position to make that point without hipocrasy.
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Offline daniel1948

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2017, 08:55:10 AM »
A bull market is merely a rising market. You can get a bull market because the economy is thriving, but you can also get a bull market because speculation is rampant. The former is a good thing. The latter will end with a crash. Optimism is characterized as a good thing, but over-optimism is a fool's paradise and speculation is greed trying to get something for nothing. When the economy is working, people are creating things of value. In a speculative bubble nothing of value is being created.

Thus the bull is an ambiguous symbol. Stock traders love a bull market regardless of its roots, and the really savvy ones will make money on the rise and will make even more money in the collapse when ordinary folks get wiped out and lose their homes and their livelihoods.

Pop culture today loves girls who kick butt, and the smaller and slighter they are, the more we love them. Scarlett Johansson or Kate Beckinsale running roughshod over the bad guys. Nobody is going to cast a female Russian weightlifter in the role of kick-butt heroine. But Lucy Liu will always be popular in that role. Or Chloe Moritz as Hit Girl in Kickass. Thus we have Fearless Girl where 50 years ago it would have been a working-class man. The bull artist may not like it, but his bull means very different things to stockbrokers and the working poor. And Buffy telling the monster "I'm not afraid of you" appeals to a lot of folks these days. It may look like the bull is going to trample her, but Fearless Girl, in today's culture, has a surprise waiting for him.
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Offline PANTS!

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2017, 09:27:28 AM »
The bull is a lie.
Now where I come from
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2017, 11:10:46 AM »
So the little girl is basically Liz Warren, facing down rampant risky speculation with determination and regulatory oversight.

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Offline Redamare

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2017, 11:14:10 AM »
I still think appropriating someone's original artwork to make your own message is a shitty thing to do. Even though I don't sympathize with the original message of the Bull.
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Offline D4M10N

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Re: Fearless Girl
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2017, 12:11:00 PM »


I still think appropriating someone's original artwork to make your own message is a shitty thing to do.

So sayeth the critics of Piss Christ.

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