Author Topic: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile  (Read 1264 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online The Latinist

  • Cyber Greasemonkey
  • Technical Administrator
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2017, 08:20:13 AM »
Tolls are insane in some areas of Virginia. . . .If you go into Richmond for example, you may end up paying around $8 a day in tolls going in and out of the city.

All the bridges and tunnels into NYC are 15 dollars, except the one that is 16.

Or, you know, the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queens bridges.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline daniel1948

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5209
  • Cat Lovers Against the Bomb
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2017, 08:58:08 AM »
most of the problems I hear about the gas tax are that it is regressive, it hurts poor classes more than wealthy classes.

Everything hurts the poor more than the wealthy. Everything. The solution is to address poverty, not to ignore the ecological and environmental effects of carbon and other pollution.

When I lived in North Dakota, they built a toll bridge across the river at the far north end of Fargo. There had previously been no bridge there and to get from the north end of Fargo to the north end of Moorhead (MN) you had to drive all the way down to the city center to cross. I don't remember what the toll was. I think it was around 25 cents. You had to slow down and toss a coin or token into a big sort of funnel. If you could manage to toss the coin on the fly you didn't have to stop completely. It was totally worth the quarter to avoid driving all the way around if you didn't otherwise have to go that far south.

I think the deal was that a private company built the bridge, so you were actually using a private road and paying the owner to use it. If you didn't want to, you could still go downtown and cross on the public bridges for free. In addition to saving some distance you also avoided the downtown traffic.
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline superdave

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5199
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2017, 11:17:02 AM »
Tolls are insane in some areas of Virginia. . . .If you go into Richmond for example, you may end up paying around $8 a day in tolls going in and out of the city.

All the bridges and tunnels into NYC are 15 dollars, except the one that is 16.

Or, you know, the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queens bridges.

Those are all bridges from one part of the city to the other.  If you want to get into NYC from outside NYC and you cross a bridge, you gotta pay up.
I disavow anyone in the movement involved in any illegal,unethical, sexist, or racist behavior. However, I don't have the energy or time to investigate each person and case, and a lack of individual disavowals for each incident should not be construed as condoning such behavior.

Offline Desert Fox

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 15974
  • Hopeful Non-Theist
    • Kitsune's Web Page
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2017, 11:01:59 PM »
Tolls are insane in some areas of Virginia. . . .If you go into Richmond for example, you may end up paying around $8 a day in tolls going in and out of the city.

All the bridges and tunnels into NYC are 15 dollars, except the one that is 16.

I think the income for those who live in the NYC area tends to be higher than around Richmond Virginia.
I don't mind pay, just be something I can afford.
"Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith. Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge."
— Robert G. Ingersoll

Offline wastrel

  • Great poster... or greatest poster?
  • Technical Administrator
  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • *****
  • Posts: 12454
  • Science: A cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2017, 01:10:40 AM »
Tolls are insane in some areas of Virginia. . . .If you go into Richmond for example, you may end up paying around $8 a day in tolls going in and out of the city.

All the bridges and tunnels into NYC are 15 dollars, except the one that is 16.

Or, you know, the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queens bridges.

Those are all bridges from one part of the city to the other.  If you want to get into NYC from outside NYC and you cross a bridge, you gotta pay up.

As a complete outsider, that makes sense to me.  I imagine the intent is to bring money to the city lost by people who live outside of the city but commute daily into it.  These would be people who use city services, yet do not pay property tax.

Online The Latinist

  • Cyber Greasemonkey
  • Technical Administrator
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2017, 11:51:15 AM »
Tolls are insane in some areas of Virginia. . . .If you go into Richmond for example, you may end up paying around $8 a day in tolls going in and out of the city.

All the bridges and tunnels into NYC are 15 dollars, except the one that is 16.

Or, you know, the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queens bridges.

Those are all bridges from one part of the city to the other.  If you want to get into NYC from outside NYC and you cross a bridge, you gotta pay up.

You speak from the perspective of one who lives on the other side of the Hudson; which is fine, but you should at least acknowledge the limits of your perspective.  I can quite easily drive into NYC without paying any tolls.
I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline tomangioletti

  • Brand New
  • Posts: 3
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2017, 01:04:47 PM »
My $0.02:  I think my life is complicated enough; I don't want another device and bill to keep tabs on; So I am against a new system of fees for miles driven.  If we need more money for road maintenance, increase the existing gasoline tax or the existing tire tax.  Or increase the existing income tax and pay more for roads out of general revenue, since roads are in the general public interest.

Offline superdave

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5199
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2017, 01:10:29 PM »
Tolls are insane in some areas of Virginia. . . .If you go into Richmond for example, you may end up paying around $8 a day in tolls going in and out of the city.

All the bridges and tunnels into NYC are 15 dollars, except the one that is 16.

Or, you know, the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg, and Queens bridges.

Those are all bridges from one part of the city to the other.  If you want to get into NYC from outside NYC and you cross a bridge, you gotta pay up.

You speak from the perspective of one who lives on the other side of the Hudson; which is fine, but you should at least acknowledge the limits of your perspective.  I can quite easily drive into NYC without paying any tolls.

you could also swim from one side or the other without paying any tolls, that doesn't mean the tolls aren't expensive as fuck.
I disavow anyone in the movement involved in any illegal,unethical, sexist, or racist behavior. However, I don't have the energy or time to investigate each person and case, and a lack of individual disavowals for each incident should not be construed as condoning such behavior.

Offline daniel1948

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5209
  • Cat Lovers Against the Bomb
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2017, 03:01:16 PM »
My $0.02:  I think my life is complicated enough; I don't want another device and bill to keep tabs on; So I am against a new system of fees for miles driven.  If we need more money for road maintenance, increase the existing gasoline tax or the existing tire tax.  Or increase the existing income tax and pay more for roads out of general revenue, since roads are in the general public interest.

Paying for roads out of the general revenue is to subsidize cars on the backs of people who do not use them. Folks who use public transit or bicycles. Roads should be paid for by those who use them. At one time a gas tax was a good way to do that. Very roughly, your wear and tear on the roads was proportional to your gas consumption. With electric cars coming on strong, that's no longer the case.

A tire tax might be a very good idea, though with tires lasting many thousands of miles this could mean a big hit all at once, and with interstate commerce, it would need to be imposed in a manner that did not unfairly affect some states over others. Requiring you to go in once a year to have your odometer read seems like the most fair way (and combining that reading with your vehicle weight, which will be a matter of record). Gas cars have to go in for a smog test, so folks switching from gas to electric will not be hit with a new obligation, and gas cars could be read at the time of the smog test.

As for a new bill to pay, well, taxes are needed to provide services, and not wanting to write a check is a bad argument for making people who don't drive subsidize those who do.
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline Ah.hell

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11447
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2017, 09:48:57 AM »
As for a new bill to pay, well, taxes are needed to provide services, and not wanting to write a check is a bad argument for making people who don't drive subsidize those who do.
Its a bad argument but its one that works.  So, as a practical matter, its a hard sell to the public.

Offline lonely moa

  • A rather tough old bird.
  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 4307
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2017, 06:00:27 PM »
We pay a road user tax (6.2 cents/km) for our diesel VW, Nissan ute and Hilux Surf.  Diesel here is about half the price of petrol.  The fines for not having one's k's up to date and on one's windscreen are enough to scare one to conform.
"Our minds are not quite designed to understand how the world works, but, rather, to get out of trouble rapidly an have progeny."  Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Online Friendly Angel

  • Frequent Poster
  • ******
  • Posts: 3303
  • Post count reset to zero in both forum apocalypses
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2017, 06:03:56 PM »
We pay a road user tax (6.2 cents/km) for our diesel VW, Nissan ute and Hilux Surf.  Diesel here is about half the price of petrol.  The fines for not having one's k's up to date and on one's windscreen are enough to scare one to conform.

Wow, that's not complicated... different tax for gas and diesel, show up at a government confirmation site and pay.

Quote
If you drive a diesel, another type of non-petrol fuelled vehicle or any vehicle weighing over 3,500kg (such as petrol-engined motorhomes), you need to pay Road User Charges (RUC). These charges go towards maintaining and improving the roading network.

Petrol vehicles contribute towards these costs through an excise tax on petrol. There is no tax on diesel, which is why these vehicles need to pay RUC instead.

RUC is charged according to how many kilometres a vehicle travels, and its type and weight. Vehicles pay a set amount for every 1,000 kilometres travelled.
Amend and resubmit.

Offline Drunken Idaho

  • Natural Blonde
  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 9678
  • Comrade Questions
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2017, 06:17:09 PM »
Paying for roads out of the general revenue is to subsidize cars on the backs of people who do not use them. Folks who use public transit or bicycles. Roads should be paid for by those who use them. At one time a gas tax was a good way to do that. Very roughly, your wear and tear on the roads was proportional to your gas consumption. With electric cars coming on strong, that's no longer the case.

Kinda depends on how vital we consider having a system of roads to be. I consider it part of our necessary infrastructure--we need roads to move food and chemicals and people, and for emergency response. I get how it might not seem fair to a person who doesn't own a car, but I think it's something we should all chip in to cover. Just like I'm fine with my tax money paying for public education even if I never have kids.
Strange women lying in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government.

Offline daniel1948

  • Stopped Going Outside
  • *******
  • Posts: 5209
  • Cat Lovers Against the Bomb
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2017, 07:37:25 AM »
Paying for roads out of the general revenue is to subsidize cars on the backs of people who do not use them. Folks who use public transit or bicycles. Roads should be paid for by those who use them. At one time a gas tax was a good way to do that. Very roughly, your wear and tear on the roads was proportional to your gas consumption. With electric cars coming on strong, that's no longer the case.

Kinda depends on how vital we consider having a system of roads to be. I consider it part of our necessary infrastructure--we need roads to move food and chemicals and people, and for emergency response. I get how it might not seem fair to a person who doesn't own a car, but I think it's something we should all chip in to cover. Just like I'm fine with my tax money paying for public education even if I never have kids.

A tax on road usage will (or should) be paid for all who use the roads. This includes the trucks that carry goods to market. That cost is passed on to the consumers, so you pay in proportion to your "use" of the roads. Private car owners make far more use of the roads, and collectively create the traffic that requires the expansion of the road system. They should pay more than those who make very light use of the roads by using public transit.

I can see an argument for inter-city highways being paid for out of general revenue. But when a city must double its road infrastructure because of the number of private cars, people who use public transit should not have to pay as much as car owners. That's just a transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy.
Daniel
----------------
"Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think long and hard before starting a war."
-- Otto von Bismarck

Offline Ah.hell

  • Poster of Extraordinary Magnitude
  • **********
  • Posts: 11447
Re: Dump the gas tax — instead pay by the mile
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2017, 09:30:50 AM »
I can see an argument for inter-city highways being paid for out of general revenue. But when a city must double its road infrastructure because of the number of private cars, people who use public transit should not have to pay as much as car owners. That's just a transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy.
That argument could also be used for funding of public transit.  Which in most cases can't support itself on fares alone and needs subsidies.