Author Topic: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game  (Read 22501 times)

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Offline Nosmas

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #225 on: June 14, 2018, 02:54:23 PM »
Wait. Does anyone in this thread think Rogan is a good skeptical messenger full stop?

I assumed others here who don't hate him just think he's someone who was terrible but not quite so bad now. Like how the most improved player on a team can still be a pretty bad player.
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Offline Soldier of FORTRAN

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #226 on: June 14, 2018, 02:57:48 PM »
Here, instead of appealing to metacognition, I'll try to be 'skeptical' about it:

Dude, this isnt reddit. We dont need to bring out evidence for who cares the least.

Ad hom. I'm reacting to stupid gossip.  That was part of an explicit, "I'm reacting to this not that." 

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I have made statements backed up by reasoning as to why I think he isnt a good skeptical messenger.

You guys moved past this ages ago. Also, --

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he isnt a good skeptical messenger.

Strawman. You people raised this idea.

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You retorted by pointing out a time I was wrong about something as if it were some sort of checkmate to my position.

The point is high bias and low knowledge.

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Maybe you do think thats a good and valid argument?

Ow!

Wait. Does anyone in this thread think Rogan is a good skeptical messenger full stop?

I don't think so.

I also don't think that's a reasonable/plausible read of the OP. Here's the relevant bit:
It's pretty nice that someone of his influence and reach has gone from moonlanding denialism to occasionally stumping for skepticism.  He routinely rags on Flat Earthers these days and occasionally talks about his past as a conspiracy theorist and why he substantially left all that behind.  It's nice to see this part of the culture making a little high profile progress and being disseminated to a huge number of people.

Occasionally? Substantially?  A little? 
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Offline Nosmas

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #227 on: June 14, 2018, 03:04:02 PM »
Here, instead of appealing to metacognition, I'll try to be 'skeptical' about it:

Wait. Does anyone in this thread think Rogan is a good skeptical messenger full stop?

I don't think so.

I also don't think that's a reasonable/plausible read of the OP. Here's the relevant bit:
It's pretty nice that someone of his influence and reach has gone from moonlanding denialism to occasionally stumping for skepticism.  He routinely rags on Flat Earthers these days and occasionally talks about his past as a conspiracy theorist and why he substantially left all that behind.  It's nice to see this part of the culture making a little high profile progress and being disseminated to a huge number of people.

Occasionally? Substantially?  A little?

I didn't think that was the message either but I wasn't sure if someone explicitly stated or even strongly suggested it in the last 15 pages that I missed. Basically the message has been that Rogan has gotten better at skepticism which is good because his audience is big. This is true. Everything else is just "I don't like him" versus "I enjoy his content".
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Offline Harry Black

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #228 on: June 14, 2018, 03:12:52 PM »
People are literally holding up his content as being beneficial in a skeptical sense!
SoF may not be. Thats fine. If they havent then we dont disagree.

You did however ask why you should take my opinion seriously since I was wrong about something quite a while back in the thread.
So if I am stating that he is not a good skeptical messenger, and you imply that my opinion isnt worth much to you because of x. Are you saying you disagree with me?
If not then why are we having this conversation? What was the point of your dig?

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #229 on: June 15, 2018, 01:44:23 AM »
My takeaway: I don't see evidence that he's getting better at skepticism. I don't see evidence that he's promoting skeptical thinking. What's been brought up is more along the lines of what many of the pseudoskeptics on YouTube we're doing a few years back, attacking really easy stuff but no real pushback against ideas that might upset his base. He doesn't actually apply the most important part, the process. 

My fear is that popularizing debunking without popularizing the process of investigation from a rational viewpoint will just get us nowhere on the whole. The New Atheism movement did a lot of that, and bred the current wave of people who started with repeating someone else's attacks on religion. Since they didn't have the process or the motivation z they were easily transitioned into being anti-other things as well, claiming to be the true skeptics on the issue but easily debunked by a novice familiar with the actual process.

Separately but not entirely separate, I haven't seen any indication that he pushes back against ideas he favors. If you flatter his idea of manly men being manly, you can say whatever you want. This locks in nicely with his record of transphobia and misogyny. His fans and the fans of Peterson and similar hatemongers refer to those interviews as evidence that their transphobia no is right. Rogan, by being bad at skepticism but taking on the skeptical language, aids the regressive woo-mongers in their bamboozle.

So that's two major arguments against him being a positive influence.
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Offline mindme

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #230 on: June 15, 2018, 09:38:11 AM »
"Does anyone in this thread think Rogan is a good skeptical messenger full stop?"

No. I think he delivers a lot of messages that benefit the skeptical community to communities that don't normally hear them. For example, messages on the reality of climate change, the idiocy of many conspiracy theories, UFO claims, etc. He also says a lot of dumb stuff. He's got some weird ideas about health and diet, but most of it has to do with the gym stuff you hear from people exercising at his level. I don't hear him, for example, being an antivaxer or telling people not to trust their doctors.

He does admit he gave many woo claims a chance but then rejected them because, not only did he find out they lacked evidence, but the skeptics and scientists actually had better answers.

I typically don't listen to him when he has a guest that probably an idiot. I like Rogan tends to side with social justice types but he also gets cranky when he thinks they're acting cultish. He's very much about talking to idiots because he thinks they have an interesting story to tell, not because he agrees with them. He himself said, for example, if he knew Alex Jones was a Sandy Hook denialist he would have called him out on that on his show.

I do tend to listen when he was on scientists and people I like (Jon Ronson, Kevin Smith, etc.). What I love is he has these people on for 3 hours. This typically means what they happen to be selling (a new book, a new movie, etc.) is done in the first 30 minutes. They're now required to abandon their usual talk show hits that can fill another 30 minutes and actually just talk. Rogan takes them down all kinds of interesting roads.

End of the day, Rogan has come a long way since his Moan Landing Denial days. He's got a lot to go. I'm enjoying watching his journey as he bumps and feels his way through all this.

Others don't.
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Offline DevoutCatalyst

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #231 on: June 15, 2018, 11:39:52 AM »
He himself said, for example, if he knew Alex Jones was a Sandy Hook denialist he would have called him out on that on his show.
How did he miss that?

https://www.infowars.com/fbi-says-no-one-killed-at-sandy-hook/

Offline mindme

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #232 on: June 15, 2018, 01:19:43 PM »
He himself said, for example, if he knew Alex Jones was a Sandy Hook denialist he would have called him out on that on his show.
How did he miss that?

https://www.infowars.com/fbi-says-no-one-killed-at-sandy-hook/

Rogan says he's a busy guy. He has family, a couple jobs, hobbies, dogs. He doesn't pay attention to everything.

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Offline DevoutCatalyst

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #233 on: June 15, 2018, 03:17:36 PM »
Rogan says he's a busy guy. He has family, a couple jobs, hobbies, dogs. He doesn't pay attention to everything.
I wish he spent more time reading skeptical blog posts and mainstream media such as The New York Times or The Washington Post, etc. A variety of outlets covered Alex Jones' aberrant and repugnant views on Sandy Hook. Jones also holds rubbish ideas about the attacks in Orlando, Brussels, and Boston. Easy to discover. Rogan's got a sidekick that does research for him. Joe Rogan is a treasure trove of interesting factoids that he can recite at will yet Alex Jones' widely known manure managed to escape him.

Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #234 on: June 15, 2018, 03:34:28 PM »
"I didn't know Alex Jones was a Sandy Hook truther" means either his research skills are majorly lacking, or it's damage control.
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Offline mindme

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #235 on: June 18, 2018, 09:27:57 AM »
his research skills are majorly lacking

Yes. Don't use Joe Rogan as an authority on anything.

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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #236 on: June 18, 2018, 10:50:48 AM »
his research skills are majorly lacking

Yes. Don't use Joe Rogan as an authority on anything.
Not even an authority issue, we keep hearing how he's a great interviewer but he claims to have missed a major thing about a person on par with, for example, Trump claiming to have irrefutable proof Obama was born in Kenya. That's a major strike against his credit as an interviewer.
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Offline mindme

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #237 on: June 18, 2018, 11:19:30 AM »
Depends on your definition of great interviewer. I enjoy 1) he has his guests on for 2-3 hours, this forces the guest to go off script 2) this also has them meander into all kinds of topics you would not expect. As far as I can tell, he mostly does have just a surface level knowledge of what many of his guests know about. He's kind of a Larry King in that regard.
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Offline SkeptiQueer

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #238 on: June 18, 2018, 11:45:01 AM »
Depends on your definition of great interviewer. I enjoy 1) he has his guests on for 2-3 hours, this forces the guest to go off script 2) this also has them meander into all kinds of topics you would not expect. As far as I can tell, he mostly does have just a surface level knowledge of what many of his guests know about. He's kind of a Larry King in that regard.

I didn't think Larry King was a good interviewer either. Anyone has the ability to bring someone on for 2-3 hours. There's nothing about that that makes someone a good interviewer. Interviewing is a skill, so for example if you were interviewing someone who had a politcal axe to grind it might be helpful to know about that so you can challenge it a bit. Also, as i noted before as long as you flatter his ego and the idea of alpha men and that garbage you can follow it up with whatever you want and he won't challenge it. That's also not somehting that makes for a good interviewer. Having an easily-manipulated blind spot like that makes one a very bad interviewer as it allows someone to essentially pull the ripcord on a difficult topic.

A good interviewer gets to the matter and has someone explain their ideas in a way the audience can understand.
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Offline DevoutCatalyst

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Re: Joe Rogan upping his Science & Skepticism game
« Reply #239 on: June 18, 2018, 11:53:05 AM »
Rogan's been friends with Alex Jones since the late 1990s. Larry King would have hammered Jones over Sandy Hook.

 

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