Author Topic: Texting Suicide Case  (Read 1666 times)

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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2017, 04:59:39 PM »
yeah not sure if this rises to level of crime but it's certainly shitty, so I don't have a huge problem with the conviction.

You don't have a problem with people being convicted of things that should not be criminal?
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Offline fuzzyMarmot

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2017, 08:56:08 PM »
I read that part of her defense was that she was suffering from withdrawal after switching psychiatric meds, and hence not in her right mind. I wonder to what extent that did or did not influence the verdict.

Offline moj

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2017, 06:01:55 PM »
yeah not sure if this rises to level of crime but it's certainly shitty, so I don't have a huge problem with the conviction.

You don't have a problem with people being convicted of things that should not be criminal?

Is inciting suicide in someone with depression a right you think everyone should have? How does society benefit from having that right?

Offline superdave

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2017, 08:16:41 PM »
yeah not sure if this rises to level of crime but it's certainly shitty, so I don't have a huge problem with the conviction.

You don't have a problem with people being convicted of things that should not be criminal?

The case is borderline, I wouldn't convict but I recognize that a reasonable person could come to a different conclusion and that I could be wrong.
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Offline Desert Fox

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2017, 08:49:19 PM »
yeah not sure if this rises to level of crime but it's certainly shitty, so I don't have a huge problem with the conviction.

You don't have a problem with people being convicted of things that should not be criminal?

The case is borderline, I wouldn't convict but I recognize that a reasonable person could come to a different conclusion and that I could be wrong.

I tend to throw up my hands with this case which indicates that the benefit of "Not Guilty" would have me vote that way.
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Offline DG

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2017, 08:52:41 PM »
I have no problem with enticing a person to commit suicide being an offence, any more than I have a problem with harassing someone until they kill themselves being criminal. One's words can harm just as surely as a blade, with the right target.

As I understand it the kid got as far as getting out of the car before being "ordered" back in, being called "weak" for backing out - the person sending the texts both knew and intended the likely outcome of the texts. She expected and wanted him to follow those directions, she appears to have strongly believed that he would. The sole reason for the activity was to cause the end of his life. It's worth noting that (in some jurisdictions) aiding and abetting suicide is an offence - I have little doubt (based on what I have read) that the work she did assisting him for the purpose of enabling him to end his own life would have met that threshold.

Whether or not her intentions were "for the best" in her opinion, that's no better than murdering someone during an exorcism, or refusing to get help because "God will fix it". In short, no one is suggesting she had a legal responsibility to help him, she had a legal responsibility not to make it worse. Had she just broken up with him and he then killed himself we wouldn't be having this discussion - but she'd probably still feel like she caused his death. But given his failure rate, the fact that he tried to back out of this one - there's little doubt that he would not have killed himself in this way at this time, but for her direction.

This person is exactly the reason there are fears about friends and family pushing ill relatives to euthanasia for personal benefit.
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Offline The Latinist

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2017, 10:06:13 PM »
yeah not sure if this rises to level of crime but it's certainly shitty, so I don't have a huge problem with the conviction.

You don't have a problem with people being convicted of things that should not be criminal?

Is inciting suicide in someone with depression a right you think everyone should have? How does society benefit from having that right?

Dave said he was not sure it rose to the level of a crime but that he didn't have a problem with her being convicted of it.  It is that inconsistency which I am questioning.

I would like to propose...that...it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true. — Bertrand Russell

Offline DG

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2017, 10:13:55 PM »
yeah not sure if this rises to level of crime but it's certainly shitty, so I don't have a huge problem with the conviction.

You don't have a problem with people being convicted of things that should not be criminal?

Is inciting suicide in someone with depression a right you think everyone should have? How does society benefit from having that right?

Dave said he was not sure it rose to the level of a crime but that he didn't have a problem with her being convicted of it.  It is that inconsistency which I am questioning.

Oddly, I understood Dave's comment to be saying "Starting from a blank slate I don't know that I would expressly prohibit that kind of texting, but if it's in the current definition of manslaughter I'm OK with that".

There are things in the statute book that I would not prohibit, but I also understand "They are the rules, and I understand that's the penalty under the rules". Equally there are things that I would prohibit - that others are free to do without sanction. I wonder if we both read that comment without our own biases showing. I'd love to hear what Dave actually meant.
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Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2017, 11:08:21 PM »
I have no problem with enticing a person to commit suicide being an offence

Me either, but not manslaughter... Maybe failure to render aid.
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Offline superdave

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2017, 06:46:04 AM »
I hate to use a sports analogy here because I don't want to seem like I am trivializing a serious tragedy, but it's the best one I can come up with to explain myself.

Imagine you are at a baseball game and you are sitting relatively close to home-plate.  There's a pitch, and the umpire calls it a ball and you thought it was a strike.  Under those circumstances, you might legitimately believe it was a strike, and you could be right, but you have no choice but to defer to the expertise of the umpire, who is both better trained at this than you, and also standing 3 feet from the catcher. 

In other words, I might personally not think this rises to the level of a criminal offense but I find it plausible enough that I accept an alternate conclusion made by professionals who were actually present at the trial and know more about the case than anyone who is just reading the news can know.
I disavow anyone in the movement involved in any illegal,unethical, sexist, or racist behavior. However, I don't have the energy or time to investigate each person and case, and a lack of individual disavowals for each incident should not be construed as condoning such behavior.

Offline RGU

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2017, 08:51:58 AM »
I hate to use a sports analogy here because I don't want to seem like I am trivializing a serious tragedy, but it's the best one I can come up with to explain myself.

Imagine you are at a baseball game and you are sitting relatively close to home-plate.  There's a pitch, and the umpire calls it a ball and you thought it was a strike.  Under those circumstances, you might legitimately believe it was a strike, and you could be right, but you have no choice but to defer to the expertise of the umpire, who is both better trained at this than you, and also standing 3 feet from the catcher. 

In other words, I might personally not think this rises to the level of a criminal offense but I find it plausible enough that I accept an alternate conclusion made by professionals who were actually present at the trial and know more about the case than anyone who is just reading the news can know.

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Offline Belgarath

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2017, 08:57:16 AM »
It seems to me that some are minimizing the actions taken by the woman in this case.

If she had ONLY texted 'do it!' or something of the kind, then I would be a little bit more sympathetic, lets add some more facts to the case:

1) She researched for him how he would need to set up the truck
2) She figured out and researched the required PPM of CO that would be needed for death to occur.
3) She texted him during the attempt and even harassed him back into the truck when he wanted to stop.

I refer you to this podcast that did a pretty good job of looking at the law and the facts of the case:

http://seriouspod.com/sio51-andrew-torrez-manslaughter-philando-castile-michelle-carter/


I'm not sure without having the entire record of the trial that I could say how I would decide, but I do know that if this were just a single 'go ahead and kill yourself' text, then we wouldn't even be prosecuting it.



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Offline moj

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2017, 10:20:40 AM »
Yeah she did this for days after he repeatedly said he didn't want to kill him self anymore. He wanted to get help and she talked him back into it killing himself. I am a OK with convicting her and her doing time.

Offline RGU

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2017, 10:25:23 AM »
Yeah she did this for days after he repeatedly said he didn't want to kill him self anymore. He wanted to get help and she talked him back into it killing himself. I am a OK with convicting her and her doing time.

this is the first I have heard of this, where did you see it?
I recall reading the beginning texts which were her trying to get him help and him refusing over and over

Offline moj

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Re: Texting Suicide Case
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2017, 10:33:42 AM »

 

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