Author Topic: The Trinity & Worshipers?  (Read 3146 times)

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Online John Albert

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2017, 08:00:28 PM »
The Trinitarian doctrine predates much of what people would consider the Catholic Church. I do not even believe that the Bishop of Rome attended some of the key Ecumenical Councils on the subject.

What do you think "people would consider" the founding of the Catholic Church? The Edict of Milan? The First Council of Nicaea? The Edict of Thessalonica?

Seems to me the obvious choice would be the Edict of Thessalonica, which established the official Christian church of the Roman Empire. That occurred in the year 380 and the First Council of Constantinople established Trinitariansim as doctrine in the year 381.


Jesus and God aren't separate beings, but they're not the same being either.

That is true, insomuch as neither of them is a real being. One of them may have been a being at one point in time, but even that's debatable.

Online Mr. Beagle

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2017, 08:10:15 PM »
The person in the pew is more likely to get their theology through hymns and, these days, inane repetitive praise choruses, than from scripture or theologians. Hymn memes are better memes than old guys writing in Latin.

A common hymn shared among denominations says, "Holy, holy, holy, God in three persons, blessed Trinity."

What does this mean? Doesn't matter. I have no idea, and it is still stuck in my head.
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Online John Albert

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2017, 08:26:37 PM »
A common hymn shared among denominations says, "Holy, holy, holy, God in three persons, blessed Trinity."

What does this mean? Doesn't matter. I have no idea, and it is still stuck in my head.


Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2017, 08:38:08 PM »

What do you think "people would consider" the founding of the Catholic Church? The Edict of Milan? The First Council of Nicaea? The Edict of Thessalonica?

Seems to me the obvious choice would be the Edict of Thessalonica, which established the official Christian church of the Roman Empire. That occurred in the year 380 and the First Council of Constantinople established Trinitariansim as doctrine in the year 381.


The Council of Nicaea set down a bunch of rules for how the church should be operated, a code of behavior for clerics (no self castration!), and canon law.  That sounds like just as valid a starting point as anything else - and it's earlier; year 325.
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Online John Albert

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2017, 09:08:09 PM »

What do you think "people would consider" the founding of the Catholic Church? The Edict of Milan? The First Council of Nicaea? The Edict of Thessalonica?

Seems to me the obvious choice would be the Edict of Thessalonica, which established the official Christian church of the Roman Empire. That occurred in the year 380 and the First Council of Constantinople established Trinitariansim as doctrine in the year 381.


The Council of Nicaea set down a bunch of rules for how the church should be operated, a code of behavior for clerics (no self castration!), and canon law.  That sounds like just as valid a starting point as anything else - and it's earlier; year 325.

That's true, but I chose the Edict of Thessalonica because it explicitly established the official Roman Christian religion which ended up being known as the Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 04:06:48 AM by John Albert »

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2017, 09:45:36 AM »

What do you think "people would consider" the founding of the Catholic Church? The Edict of Milan? The First Council of Nicaea? The Edict of Thessalonica?

Seems to me the obvious choice would be the Edict of Thessalonica, which established the official Christian church of the Roman Empire. That occurred in the year 380 and the First Council of Constantinople established Trinitariansim as doctrine in the year 381.


I do not have time to look up the dates but to me the Catholic Church came into the form it is today when it changed from the See of Rome having a degree of primacy to when they declared the Pope the Supreme Pontiff. It would be a little like Trump declaring that now rules over all of the countries in NATO and that all leaders now report to him.

I believe that the Orthodox and Catholics believe that the Trinity was doctrine before the council based on Sacred Tradition. The Councils met to resolve disagreements on aspects of the doctrine.
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Offline Friendly Angel

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2017, 11:39:42 AM »
I do not have time to look up the dates but to me the Catholic Church came into the form it is today when it changed from the See of Rome having a degree of primacy to when they declared the Pope the Supreme Pontiff.

You're right about one thing, this discussion should be about agreeing to the definition of the beginning of the RCC, then it should be easy to pick the date or event.  First pope is a reasonable proposal.

I don't think it's that important but it's interesting.
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Online John Albert

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2017, 11:45:18 AM »
I believe that the Orthodox and Catholics believe that the Trinity was doctrine before the council based on Sacred Tradition. The Councils met to resolve disagreements on aspects of the doctrine.

By definition, a thing can't be "doctrine" unless it's declared so by some authority. Prior to the Edict of Thessalonika The Holy Trinity was not a doctrine per se, but just a tradition held by some sects of Christianity. The Edict validated it as official Church doctrine.

The Catholics date the founding of their Church to the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus appointed Peter his successor. Because of course they do. I believe the same goes for the Eastern Orthodox churches. Hence, Saint Peter is generally considered the first Pope. 

« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 11:52:25 AM by John Albert »

Offline Shibboleth

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2017, 12:11:19 PM »
I believe that the Orthodox and Catholics believe that the Trinity was doctrine before the council based on Sacred Tradition. The Councils met to resolve disagreements on aspects of the doctrine.

By definition, a thing can't be "doctrine" unless it's declared so by some authority. Prior to the Edict of Thessalonika The Holy Trinity was not a doctrine per se, but just a tradition held by some sects of Christianity. The Edict validated it as official Church doctrine.

The Catholics date the founding of their Church to the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus appointed Peter his successor. Because of course they do. I believe the same goes for the Eastern Orthodox churches. Hence, Saint Peter is generally considered the first Pope.

Catholics do consider Peter to be the first Pope when Jesus gave him the keys. The Orthodox never agreed that the Bishop of Rome had supreme authority over the other Sees.

A tenet of Faith in the Catholic Church does not have to be infallibly defined to be considered doctrine. They are infallible but the Pope need not use his Chair to define them to be Doctrine nor do they need to be explicitly noted in an Ecumenical Council. In other words Doctrine need not be dogma.

In the Orthodox Faith Sacred Tradition is doctrine. They reject the idea of doctrinal development. The Orthodox believe that Ecumenical Councils validate and clarify doctrines that already existed.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 12:21:26 PM by Shibboleth »
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Offline Awatsjr

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2017, 08:01:18 PM »
There is another "theory" called adoptionism that thinks Jesus was a regular guy until he became divine by being baptized... or at the resurrection.  Apparently in ancient Rome adopting a son was a really big deal.

I suspect this is what Jesus believed. He was selected at his baptism and surprised when god bailed out at the end and let him die.

Offline The Latinist

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2017, 09:14:08 PM »
I was a Methodist kid - and I didn't pay that much attention, but I'm pretty sure the trinity wasn't a Methodist thing.

Jesus was the son, God was the father, there was no holy ghost.

It is one of the more interesting differences between Christian sects and in Christian history.

Pretty clear here: http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-articles-of-religion-of-the-methodist-church
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Offline Ah.hell

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2017, 09:33:11 AM »
I was a Methodist kid - and I didn't pay that much attention, but I'm pretty sure the trinity wasn't a Methodist thing.

Jesus was the son, God was the father, there was no holy ghost.

It is one of the more interesting differences between Christian sects and in Christian history.

Pretty clear here: http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/the-articles-of-religion-of-the-methodist-church
As far as I know, Unitarians and the Mormons are the only mainstream christians that aren't trinitarian.  Weather they are mainstream or even really christian depends on who you're asking. 

That being said, I would not be shocked to find out that the majority or even vast majority of US Christians have no idea what the trinity is or whether their church believes in it.   Except maybe Catholics of either Roman or the Orthodox variety.

Online Mr. Beagle

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2017, 11:18:31 AM »
I have been in this discussion with Mormons and it gets down to semantics, complicated by the reality that Christians remain all over the map on Trinity 2000 years later.

The Book of Mormon is quite conventionally Trinitarian to my understanding, but Smith evolved his thinking over 15 years before his assassination. Even now, Mormons would say that Three Gods in One is what they still believe because they claim there is no inconsistency in what each testifies. Are they three separate beings? Yes, but so is the implication of Jesus praying to the Father.

In the end, people don't agree because it was verbal gymnastics from the git-go.
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Online Desert Fox

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2017, 09:58:46 PM »
Part of the problem with the Trinity is how do you as a worshiper square it even with the Bible?
Was Jesus praying to himself, was he forsaking himself, how would he tempted by Satan if he already owned the world, etc?
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Offline arthwollipot

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Re: The Trinity & Worshipers?
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2017, 10:01:05 PM »
Part of the problem with the Trinity is how do you as a worshiper square it even with the Bible?
Was Jesus praying to himself, was he forsaking himself, how would he tempted by Satan if he already owned the world, etc?
Like I said before, they are separate aspects of the same divine essence. They are literally different "people" with a single... um... divine... something. But "jesus prayed to himself" is nonsensical given most mainstream interpretations of the Trinity.

 

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